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  1. #1

    Single Player Map Editor Initial Impressions

    This thread was created to discuss the single player map editor. I am just as disappointed as everyone else with the lack of PvP map editor, but there are numerous threads about that. Please don't bog down this thread with your PvP map editor complaints.

    So I was able to tool around a little last night and test out the map editor tools for making a single player map. My initial impressions are discussed below.

    First, the good. The wonderful terrain editor from previous installments of the game is back and just as good as ever. I am a little disappointed with what initially appears to be a relatively limited theme selection (no desert or tropics), but it is thematically appropriate for the game. There are tons of texture options. Holes and water blocks are back. Also, the amount of objects available for placement is staggering. Waterfalls and tunnels are back. There exists an entire building block set within structures that includes various interior walls, floors, roofs, and ceilings to create your own buildings. Also there is a myriad of cool statues to choose. With the terrain and object options you really can make beautiful and detailed maps.

    Next, the not so good. Their appears to be no way to create any story, dialogue, or custom objectives. I could not find a way to input custom text to set this up. There is an objective tool in the editor, but it just marks an area of interest on the player's map (that they can choose to completely ignore). There is no way to make an objective based map, such as destroy the four guard buildings prior to conquering the outpost or collect these objects or save the hostage prior to killing off all the enemies.

    Finally, the ugly. The AI options are horrendous, aka, you have no AI options. There is no way to program a patrol path for AI. There is no way to control AI attack routes or behavior. There is no way to modify AI weapons, health, or intelligence. I can't even figure out a way to tell a guard to stay at his post in the event that the player is detected. If the player attacks a guard on one side of the map, all the guards from the other side of the map will cross the map and chase the player down mindlessly (at least in assault and outpost - I haven't tried excursion yet). There is no way to set the map up so that you can attack individual pockets of enemies without alerting all the enemies (if you are detected). This is simply not acceptable! The strength of the editor is entirely based on the AI abilities, and with such terrible AI options this editor will have no longevity.

    Also, there is no way to trigger events (if condition a is met, ally AI will spawn and help player). There is no way to make any conditions (aka enemy 1 will only attack you if enemy 3-4 die). There is no way to make a condition like pull switches a-c to open door Z.

    If I am wrong about any of this please correct me, but as it stands this editor is great for creating something beautiful but terrible for creating any interesting gameplay scenarios (not even including PvP), and gameplay scenarios are what's important!!!

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  2. #2
    Wow, the basis of a custom campaign is entirely dependent on objectives, AI and triggers. I'm not sure what they expected us to do with the map editor? The game seems unfinished.
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  3. #3

    Bad A.I. = Worthless SG IGE

    Originally Posted by Manlius10A Go to original post
    This thread was created to discuss the single player map editor. I am just as disappointed as everyone else with the lack of PvP map editor, but there are numerous threads about that. Please don't bog down this thread with your PvP map editor complaints.

    So I was able to tool around a little last night and test out the map editor tools for making a single player map. My initial impressions are discussed below.

    First, the good. The wonderful terrain editor from previous installments of the game is back and just as good as ever. I am a little disappointed with what initially appears to be a relatively limited theme selection (no desert or tropics), but it is thematically appropriate for the game. There are tons of texture options. Holes and water blocks are back. Also, the amount of objects available for placement is staggering. Waterfalls and tunnels are back. There exists an entire building block set within structures that includes various interior walls, floors, roofs, and ceilings to create your own buildings. Also there is a myriad of cool statues to choose. With the terrain and object options you really can make beautiful and detailed maps.

    Next, the not so good. Their appears to be no way to create any story, dialogue, or custom objectives. I could not find a way to input custom text to set this up. There is an objective tool in the editor, but it just marks an area of interest on the player's map (that they can choose to completely ignore). There is no way to make an objective based map, such as destroy the four guard buildings prior to conquering the outpost or collect these objects or save the hostage prior to killing off all the enemies.

    Finally, the ugly. The AI options are horrendous, aka, you have no AI options. There is no way to program a patrol path for AI. There is no way to control AI attack routes or behavior. There is no way to modify AI weapons, health, or intelligence. I can't even figure out a way to tell a guard to stay at his post in the event that the player is detected. If the player attacks a guard on one side of the map, all the guards from the other side of the map will cross the map and chase the player down mindlessly (at least in assault and outpost - I haven't tried excursion yet). There is no way to set the map up so that you can attack individual pockets of enemies without alerting all the enemies (if you are detected). This is simply not acceptable! The strength of the editor is entirely based on the AI abilities, and with such terrible AI options this editor will have no longevity.

    Also, there is no way to trigger events (if condition a is met, ally AI will spawn and help player). There is no way to make any conditions (aka enemy 1 will only attack you if enemy 3-4 die). There is no way to make a condition like pull switches a-c to open door Z.

    If I am wrong about any of this please correct me, but as it stands this editor is great for creating something beautiful but terrible for creating any interesting gameplay scenarios (not even including PvP), and gameplay scenarios are what's important!!!


    I made a previous post regarding concerns/questions about the SP IGE. One of those was the intelligence/manipulation of the A.I. Without that, the replay value is ZERO! Also, most maps now will simply turn into viewing ones. Spend countless hours making a SP map just so other mappers can come in to view it one time. Take into account, a lot of experienced mappers won't buy the game and you're left with enjoying the maps you created by yourself and few others. What makes it frustrating (as you have pointed out) is that the editor has so much potential. Let's hope in FC5 all the pieces come together. Thanks for the constructive and honest thread.
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  4. #4
    I didn't play test these options, but I do remember seeing them. I think if you wanted AI in a vehicle, rather than selected an individual AI enemy, you could actually select an AI truck with AI enemies already grouped inside.

    As far as a mounted turret, I believe you can chose an animation object as a turret for enemy AI to use. For animations you can choose a duration for the animation and a cool down time before that animation is recycled. Each animation object is used randomly by nearby AI enemies making it a fairly organic process that is slightly unpredictable.

    I will provide clarifications next time I am able to play (tonight or tomorrow night).
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  5. #5
    So, I replayed my test map multiple times last night, and I could not reproduce the scenario that I complained about before (players attacking guards on one side of the map, attracts guards from the opposite side of the map). I found the AI actions to be varied enough to provide different gameplay for multiple runs. Also, using the "guard" or "general idle" animations will keep guards in a desired position until the player is detected.

    I still have not found a way to control enemy behavior once the player is detected, but I think that the enemy behavior depends on the enemy type. I wish I could program an enemy to stay in a general area, even when the player is detected (like to guard a door or item).

    In addition, I can further elaborate on enemy behavior around turrets and vehicles. As indicated in my previous post, you can select an AI option where a pre-selected group of enemy AIs spawn in a vehicle. But AI will also use available vehicles that have been placed as objects. For instance, when I was sniping enemies from afar, enemies boarded a nearby ATV and used it to close the distance to me faster. There is no animation for AI use of turrets. AI simply will use the turret if suitable for the situation.
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  6. #6
    Check my map called "Liberation" in Outpost mode. I've made 2 outpost on the opposite's spots of map, and one on centre of the map without reinforcement "antena". When enemies in one outpost spot me and don't call alarm, enemies from other outpost's will not come and they don't know that something is happening. AI will use turret if you place a soldier close to it. Those behavoiur animations like Guard and Idle are for making paths for AI. You create a few points for Idle - enemy soldier will go to one of them and stay there for time that you set. Then he choose another one free point and go there.
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  7. #7
    I never thought of linking several guard animations together to make a path. That is an excellent suggestion. How closely do AI following one guard spot to the next? It seems there movement after an animation loop is a bit random.
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  8. #8
    One Guard spot will not be working with soldier that is on the opposite site of the map, which is good. Yes, movement is bit random, because ai is no using pathnodes cause we can;t add them. You can highlight their area of movement in the editor (for vehicles too). Let's say that you have two guard points in front of the building and one object beetwen them. AI will go to point avoiding the object from left or right. They will not go behind the building or something like that. They just going quite easy to point. If you make more points or some like "smoking", "piss" etc. your outpost will be looking realistic and enemy will be quite unpredictable even for you. You can't choose which point is for which soldier if they are in area of working this point, but some of the points are for special class soldier like sniper or heavy gunner.
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  9. #9
    I wish you could edit their area of movement, too.
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  10. #10
    Multiplayer map editor is best.

    Single player map editor sucks.

    FC3 map editor was way better.
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