1. #1
    ZergRusher's Avatar Duel of Champions Grandmaster
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    Confusing cards and interactions

    In DoC there are some interactions between cards that are not completely intuitive. I’d like to list most of them in one place to help new players to learn about the game quicker and for developers to take a second look at some of the cards and maybe change them so they become more accessible (or, in some cases, correct awful/incorrect wording).

    A lot of interactions that might be confusing are simply results of the rules of the game. Those few rules governing the entire game should be explained in tutorial and then you should be ready to go. Unfortunately DoC is not doing this part right. It's a big problem that might not be easy to solve since it encompasses unintuitive design, sloppy wording (way to often + spelling mistakes although i can see some progress on this front) and propensity for (it might be just my impression) over-complicated/wall-of-text cards (Arcane Mastery, Death Lord) and unwillingness to change old cards when interactions with new cards become clumsy (BS Crusher was changed after forum was flooded with complains instead early during the testing phase when it was pointed that it was unintuitive). Anyway, Duel of Champions follows these rules to resolve actions and effects (you may also read ingame help -> duel rules section):
    - cards are resolved by the sequence of them being played, meaning the effect of a card that was played earlier will activate before the effect of another card
    - however dying is simultaneous. In case of mass removals, such as Insect Swarm or Doombringer each creature dies at the same time and not according to the sequence of deployment. This also applies to dying from Hellfire Maniac's ability or Cyclops Brawler's double attack (although the latter one feels like a bug)
    - the effect of a card comes first before the game acknowledge the card being played

    Some players called for a rulebook like in MtG. It’d certainly help to have a one place to gather all the rules of the game but I honestly believe that intuitiveness and simplicity are the premises of a modern, online CCG. If an online CCG needs a rulebook I’d say there is something wrong with the game itself.

    I recommend opening Deck Builder in the game or some site with the cards to be able to see and read the cards that are described (http://www.mmdoctools.com/cards | http://mmdoc.cardgamerobot.com/cards.php)

    Without further ado, here’s the list:

    WRONG WORDING/BUGS
    1. Focused Mind + Fear or Rakshasa Raja - this has been bugging me for a long time. Text in Focused Mind is wrong (in my opinion) and has never been corrected but even if corrected that card still wouldn't be intuitive enough to be a "good" card in my eyes. The correct wording would be: Friendly creatures are immune to following effects: Berserk and Cannot Attack. The definition of the Fear effect is as follows: This creature cannot be attacked by a creature with a might level requirement of X or less and i see absolutely no reason why Focused Mind (Friendly creatures cannot be prevented from attacking...) shouldn't work against it. I mean i know why - because it's coded to effect only the keyword ability: cannot attack while fear ability does not mark a creature with a cannot attack effect. Same story with Centaur Sharpshooter.
      Focused Mind:
      • does NOT work against Fear (i believe it should - it's obvious for me - when your mind is focused you don't feel fear and should be able to attack)
      • does NOT work with Rakshasa Raja (i believe it shouldsimply because of the wording)
      • does not work vs Phased - you still can attack - you will simply target the hero or the creature behind
      • does not work vs Towering - if you have a Tower and a creature behind it no matter how Focused you are you simply can't reach the creature behind
      • works with Shantiri Titan
      • works with Hangman Tree (even though one might say that a Tree just cannot possibly attack but i believe that the interaction is correct)

      Spoiler:  Show



      you can also read Shambell's post on fear
    2. Disintegration + Shi-No-Shi or Phoenix (same with Disintegration + construct creatures with Titan Workforce or Rotting Mummy and counters) - the proper description should be: (...) If the creature is put into a graveyard, banish it from graveyard. The word in the description: instead implies that Disintegration works as Void Ripple (creature is banished instead of dying) and should be able to banish both Shi-No-Shi and Phoenix. Even if the wording is correct (which is not but i'm not a native speaker so there's a chance i'm wrong) it's confusing enough to warrant a change.
      Spoiler:  Show



      Sequence of effects in case of Shi-No-Shi:
      1. Player casts Desintegration
      2. Desintegration deals 8 damage to Shi-No-Shi
      3. Shi-No-Shi dies which activates his ability and Desintegration ability
      4. Since Shi-no-Shi was played first so his ability activates first before Desintegration's
      5. Desintegration banishing effect has no target
      6. The game counts Desintegration as played
    3. Tokens and Coral Ohyaku - this one is hard to say whether it fits to the wrong text or confusing interactions category. Basically Coral Ohyaku prevents you from getting skeleton tokens from Bone to Bone (the interaction with Bone Setter has been fixed). They may argue that it is intended but it doesn't feel like a planned design. See pictures in the spoilers:
      Spoiler:  Show


    4. Range Reflect - this ability has a rather strange description: Redirect x from combat damage dealt by shooter creatures to this creature to the attacking creature instead. In other words if a shooter with attack 3 attacks a range reflect 2 creature, 2 out of 3 damage points get reflected, so the shooter is dealt 2 damage points and the Range Reflect creature is dealt 1 damage. However, Range Reflect works also on retaliation in rather peculiar way. Range Reflect protects the creature from retaliation from shooter with no retaliation up to the Range Reflect level, however against melee-shooters which doesn't have Immune to Retaliation it not only protects from retaliation but also deals (=reflect) damage. Since i cannot find any explanation of this interaction in the description of this ability i decided to put it in the wrong wording/bugs category. See spoilers for further explanation:
      Spoiler:  Show




      The creature on the right is Dervish Master (Range Reflect 2)

      Dervish Master dealt 3 damage points to Bloodsnake Shaman but received no retaliation (Range Reflect protected from retaliation )

      Dervish Master dealt 3 damage points to Stormrage Hunter and then dealt 2 additional damage points (Range Reflect reflected 2 damage points from Stormrage Hunter's retaliation because Stormrage Hunter doesn't have immune to retaliation).

      i tested also a situation when the melee-shooter has 3 retaliation:




      as you can see after the attack, Dervish Master killed Stormrage Hunter and received 1 retaliation damage so the sequence of effects is as follow:
      1. Dervish Master attacks and deals 3 damage
      2. Stormrage Hunter survives and deals 3 retaliation damage
      3. 2 out 3 damage points get reflected so Dervish Master is dealt only 1 damage (if SR Hunter had Immune to Retaliation, the retaliation damage would have been prevented but not reflected)
      4. the 2 reflected damage points kill Stormrage Hunter

      ---------------

      Ur-Jubaal's Minnion

      the spell under Ur-Jubaal's Minnion is Nature's Fortitude = +4 HP



      1. Ur-Jubaal's Minnion attacks and the 2 dmg is reflected
      2. Ur-Jubaal's Minnion receives 2 dmg from Range Reflect
      3. Which triggers Ur-Jubaal's Minnion ability and deals 2 dmg to Range Reflect creature
      4. Which is reflected
      5. In the end 4 dmg was dealt to Ur-Jubaal's Minnion


      1. Ur-Jubaal's Minnion attacks and the 2 dmg is reflected and is dealt 3 retaliation dmg
      2. Ur-Jubaal's Minnion receives 2 dmg from Range Reflect
      3. Which triggers Ur-Jubaal's Minnion ability and deals 2 dmg to Range Reflect creature
      4. Which is reflected
      5. In the end 7 dmg was dealt to Ur-Jubaal's Minnion (4 from Range Reflect and 3 from retaliation)


      Shambell's explanation:

      Properties of damages are kept.
      For example, if combat damages from magic creature with poison attack are transferred, they are still a magic combat damages with infect X attached.
      Retaliation is only a specific type of combat damage normally applied in response to an attack.
      It works the same.

      So here, what we have:

      -Case 1 shooter without Immune to Retaliation.
      The reflecting creature attack, the attacked shooter retaliate but it is a shooter so Range Reflect is activated and redirect up to its value of damages to the shooter.

      -Case 2 shooter with Immune to Retaliation.
      The reflecting creature attack, the attacked shooter retaliate but it is a shooter so Range Reflect is activated and redirect up to its value of damages to the shooter.
      However the nature of the damages is kept: it is combat and retaliation damage.
      So retaliation damages are applied to a creature immune to retaliation... Nothing is happening.
    5. Thrall of Hatred and simultaneous effects - apparently game doesn't recognize the sequence of actions when one ability or card produces multiple effects. Examples: If a creature with Double Attack kills Thrall of Hatred and then another demon standing behind the Thrall you will still lose 1 HP. Same happens with Father Sky Wraith, Wombo-Combo (Ice Splinters and Song of the Lost).
      Spoiler:  Show


      The Cyclop will attack and kill the Thrall which goes to the graveyard and then kill the Succubus when there is no Thrall on board but one still loses 1 HP.
    6. Area/Focus Blast vs a creature with evade on Elemental Nexus - creature with Evade moves aside (read: Area Blast and Evade) and should receive the blast damage while not being on the Nexus. However, Nexus' buff is still active so the creature with Evade receives only half damage.
      Spoiler:  Show


      1. Lancerator attacks which triggers Evade and Rakshasa moves away from Elemental Nexus
      2. Rakshasa receives only 1 damage instead of 3




    CONFUSING INTERACTIONS
    1. Arkath’s Wraith or Tear of the Veil + BS Crusher - i understand that there's a ruling that Ward means no damage at all but Arkath's Wrath evokes the feeling of deal 5 damage, no exceptions while we all know that there is an exception which is something that i'm not particularly fond of. One thing to note is that ESW's (Enemy Spell Ward) description has been altered and no longer includes the clause: prevent all damage in order to make this interaction more clear.
      Enemy Spell Ward (ESW) This creature cannot be the target of enemy spells and is immune all effects of enemy spells:
      • as it is written it makes the card immune to ALL enemy spells and spell-effects, which includes not only damage but also global effects such as Mass Rage
      • ESW protects vs Arkath’s Wrath and Tear of the Veil since the creature is immune to all spell effects there is no damage to be reduced or prevented
      • creature with ESW will NOT be able to deal damage through Stone Shield
      • if you put ESW on a friendly creature that is enchanted by enemy ongoing spell, the creature will become immune to the spell but the spell remains (is not destroyed unlike the situation with protection in Magic the Gathering)

      Spoiler:  Show


    2. Arcane Mastery - i think around 90% of players dont fully understand this card. I have to admit that when i was writing an opinion about the card i also didn't grasp the extent of the card's effect. I still dont understand why it works against no retaliation ability, after all if Ward means no damage and no damage is being dealt by Arkath's Wraith than by the same way of thinking no retaliation means no retaliation - there is nothing to prevent or reduce (Immune to retaliation - No retaliation damage is dealt to this creature).
      Arcane Mastery:
      • works vs any kind of damage reduction ability such as: Magic/Spell Resist or Magic Shield
      • does NOT work vs Enemy Spell Ward or any kind of Ward
      • works vs Stone Shield (basically Stone Shield protects only vs might damage when Arcane Mastery is on)
      • works vs Immune to Retaliation

      OR you can change Immune to Retaliation description (a DoC dev just died from a heart attack ) from No retaliation dmg... to Prevent retaliation dmg....
    3. Chaos imp and a spell/Banshe that kills it - his effect doesn't activate because it is written on Chaos imp When opponent plays a card.... Since the effect of a card, e.g.: Firebolt is activated first, before the engine counts the card as being played his ability doesn't trigger.
      Spoiler:  Show

      Sequence - Firebolt on Chaos Imp:
      1. Player casts Firebolt
      2. deal 2 dmg
      3. Chaos Imp dies
      4. the game counts Firebolt as a played card but Chaos Imp is no longer alive


    DO YOU KNOW THAT..? (some weird and mistake prone interactions):
    1. Ariana's ability working on enrage counters - i do admit that the ability works exactly as it's written but this ability just feels like a bug (to me) even though it isn't
    2. Sacrificial Altar + incorporeal - every now and then there is a player asking whether this is a bug or does it work as intended. The wordings are clear but i guess most new players regard fortunes as spells so they expect to deal full damage. Same story with hero damage (Ishuma, Kelthor, Kal-Azaar, Kieran) it's not magical so it deals only half dmg to incorporeal
      Spoiler:  Show



      Incorporeal: Damage dealt to this creature by non-magic sources is halved, rounded down
    3. Melee shooters - In melees/shooter/flyer you can tell exactly the type of creature because melees are on the front, flyers move (fly) and shooters are on the back. Melee-shooters can be deployed on any position but there is no animation to indicate that they are melee-shooters. I've seen so many players, even experienced ones, making so many mistakes that i dunno if this feature should exist at all.
      Melee-shooters:
      • can shoot from the back AND front line
      • are both melee and shooter so any spell or ability effecting melees or shooters will effect them as well
      • are effected by both Melee Guard and Range Guard and also by Range Reflect
      • there are some cards that apply their effect to melee-shooters only when they are on the front line: Might of Nature, Xorm.
    4. Creatures with Wings that aren't flyers - some creatures are depicted as flyers (they have wings in their images) but aren't flyers e.g.:Thrall of Hatred. I think that each creature with easily visible wings should be of flyer type and some guidelines for artist should be implemented to avoid creating confusing images.
    5. Venom Soldier (or stacks in general) + Boneyard - If you deploy a second Venom Soldier on top of another Venom Soldier, the stack size will increase but the second Venom Soldier will go to your graveyard (this is how stacking mechanics work). This way, with just two Venom Soldiers and a Boneyard, you can build a stack that grows by 1 each turn (since Boneyard will bring him back from graveyard every turn).
      Spoiler:  Show





    6. Sweep Attack and Evade - Creature with Sweep Attack does not deal damage to the a creature with evade.
      Spoiler:  Show




    7. Area Blast and Evade - Creature with Area Blast attacks the creature with evade which cause the evading creature to move and then from the initial position of the creature with Evade, Area Blast damage is dealt. Shambell added that a better wording of Area Blast would be: Deal [X] damage to all creatures adjacent to the (initial) position of the attacked creature. (Also affects friendly creatures).
      Spoiler:  Show



    8. Sequence of effects - as it was already mentioned cards are resolved by the sequence of them being played, meaning the effect of a card that was played earlier will activate before the effect of another card. This also applies to attacks under Mass Rage or Berserk. If there are 2 creatures in a row and you put a Hellfire Maniac in front of the row, the creature that was deployed first will attack the HF Maniac first.
    9. Pao Veteran - bear in mind that he also works with enemy warriors too
    10. Deathlord - keep in mind that there is no friendly in the description of his first ability: Whenever a Vampire creature destroys a creature, heal 1 damage from your hero - meaning that even when enemy Vampire kills a creature your hero will be healed by 1.
    11. Puppet Master/Enthrall/Arcane Intuition don't change the owner of the creature - this means that if your opponent takes your creature with one of those spells/fortunes you can bring it back to your hand by using Broken Bridge or Town Portal.
    12. Thrall of Hatred and stacks - when you deploy a second stackable creature on the same position, the stack's size will increase and the card representing the 2cd creature goes to graveyard which triggers Thrall of Hatred's ability.
    13. Counterspell - can counterspell your own 2cd counterspell
    14. Alone in the Dark - remember that also your creatures count as one of the adjacent creatures
    15. Anchored - protects also from Puppet Master/Enthrall. You still can cast Enthrall on Anchored unit but it will have no effect.
    16. Ambush and stacks - ambush creatures with 2 dmg ambush counter stacks quite well. Every stackable creature deployed in the ambush row will get 2 dmg, which renders barracks totally ineffective vs ambush line. See spoilers for details:
      Spoiler:  Show



      the 1/0/2 shooter come from two 1/0/3 Griffin Marksman - each was dealt 2 dmg when being deployed. See what will happen when you deploy a human to get tokens on barracks:

      each token was dealt 2 dmg which in case of the token on the upper Barracks meant that the existing token was killed as well.

      --------------

      Bone Setter and ambush - notice the token on the 3rd row was killed by the ambush.

      --------------
      Here's a funny interaction:

      Gated Demons and Barracks

      When i deployed the Wolf Captain in front of the Gated Demon it discarded 2 cards. So Gated Demon counters Barracks quite well.




      I'm not particularly fond the aforementioned interactions. I think that ambush should only work when you deploy the Stackable creature first and not when you increase the stacks. It can be done by changing the description of Stackable into sth like that:
      When you deploy the creature on an another creature with the same name, increase the stack size/number instead (instead of deploying - because deploy triggers ambush abilities).

    17. Nature Elementals - the token creatures from the spell: Nature's Wrath are Earth Spirits and:
      • using Waning Moon (event) on your own Nature Elemental (token creature from Nature's Wraith) kills it
      • since they (as creatures) has no reqs, they can be stopped by creatures with Fear (e.g.: Lurker in the Dark)
      • Nature Elementals costs 0 so might be destroyed by Mother Namtaru's ability
      • moving Nature Elemental to Portal of House Anima destroys the Nature Elemental and gives you back 3 resources
    18. Bloodthirst counters are called enrage counters which i personally think it's a terrible idea. i think that enrage counters for BTh creatures shouldn't be named enrage counters but bloodthirst counters.
    19. Shogun can damage itself when entering if you target a melee creature just in front of him
    20. Revised Tactics - you can revert the chosen cards by right clicking on an empty space
    21. Perfect Retaliation - Retaliation dmg from this creature cannot be prevented or reduced. Perfect retaliation, apart from normal retaliation, works:
      • against shooters
      • against melee-guard
      • does NOT work like retribution - meaning that when your creature dies there is no retaliation
      • against Incorporeal meaning that a might creature will deal full retaliation dmg to Incorporeal creature but only half when attacking
      • does NOT work against Towering (creature affected with Towering, will not get retaliation damage from a creature with Perfect Retaliation)
    22. Crimson Wizard and damaged Beastmen - when you move a Beastman adjacent to the Wizard with 1 HP, the Beastman dies
    23. Warbound Cyclops gets +2 attack when a warrior with Double Attack attacks.
    24. Shockwave on melee creatures - melee creatures cannot attack back row if there is an enemy creature in front of it with an empty position behind the enemy creature which makes Shockwave weaker on melee creatures


    Have i missed anything?

    Hope it was worthy of your time




    There were many great posts but special thank you note goes to Xyx0rz and Shambell for substantial contriubution
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  2. #2
    Tear in the veil+crusher but I think it´s already explained with the arkath´s example.

    It´s very nice to have a thread like this, good job and ty.
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  3. #3
    Originally Posted by ZergRusher Go to original post
    Focused Mind + Fear or Rakshasa Raja - this has been bugging me for a long time. Text in Focused Mind is wrong (in my opinion) and has never been corrected but even if corrected that card still wouldn't be intuitive enough to be a "good" card in my eyes. The correct wording would be: Friendly creatures are immune to following effects: Berserk and Cannot Attack.
    It's not exactly wrong but somewhat blurry... Yes, your definition is better.

    Originally Posted by ZergRusher Go to original post
    The definition of the Fear effect is as follows: This creature cannot be attacked by a creature with a might level requirement of X or less and i see absolutely no reason why Focused Mind (Friendly creatures cannot be prevented from attacking...) shouldn't work against it. I mean i know why - because it's coded to effect only the keyword ability: cannot attack while fear ability does not mark a creature with a cannot attack effect.
    Focused Mind should :
    - work against Fear - it's obvious for me - when your mind is focused you don't feel fear and should be able to attack.
    Because as you wrote yourself, Cannot Attack and Fear [X] don't have the exact same effet.
    Cannot Attack stop you to attack at all.
    But Fear X no, it's a passive ability creating a "shield" preventing an attack from you on a specific creature if you don't have the might, the other possible targets are not impacted.
    An aura of impressiveness if you prefer, something that make you reconsidere your aggression because you don't know if you have the strength (cf. Might value) even if you have all your mind. A "too big for me" factor, this without obligatory loss of sanity.
    So if you wanted to have Focused Mind usable against Fear X, your text box should be changed according to this to mention specifically Fear X.
    Here, we reach one of the normal limitations of card game... sometimes, it doesn't sound logical at first sight.
    But the game is not made to be exactly logical like in real life but to only be internally coherent, not too deviant and, I hope, fun.

    Me, I find it illogical to be able to attack with Hangman Tree+ Focused Mind; how a stupid tree should be able to attack an opponent ?
    But it's coherent rule wise so be it.

    Originally Posted by ZergRusher Go to original post
    reason why Focused Mind (Friendly creatures cannot be prevented from attacking...) should - work with Rakshasa Raja - simply because of the wording
    No, because even if the difference is subtle, the wording is not the same.
    On one side, you have the ability "Cannot Attack".
    On the other side, you have the sentence "Rakshasa Raja cannot attack a hero"
    Note the uppercase letters C and A not present in the second case.
    The Rakshasa can attack... but some rule forbide him to attack a hero.
    If he has, let's say, order to not attack heroes (and sure he does), why focused mind should be able to change this ?
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  4. #4
    Xyx0rz's Avatar Senior Member
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    Good thread.

    Originally Posted by ZergRusher Go to original post
    If an online CCG needs a rulebook I’d say there is something wrong with the game itself.
    Agreed!

    Originally Posted by ZergRusher Go to original post
    Melee shooters "shooting" from the front line - In melees/shooter/flyer you can tell exactly the type of creature because melees are on the front, flyers move (fly) and shooters are on the back. Melee-shooters can be deployed on any position but there is no animation to indicate that they are melee-shooters. I've seen so many players, even experienced ones, making so many mistakes that i dunno if this feature should exist at all.
    I initially thought Melee-Shooters were a new thing because it's kinda weird and they so heavily intrude on flyer design, but it turns out that every set except Forgotten Wars has them, including Base Set 1.

    On that note... here's more:

    Flyers that aren't
    Thrall of Hatred and all of the succubi are clearly depicted as flying but they aren't actually Flyers. This means things like Air Trap and Father Sky's Wrath won't affect them. I personally think Thrall of Hatred should be a Flyer and the succubi should all be "Flyer-Shooters".

    The order in which berserk creatures attack
    This is mostly relevant for Hellfire Maniac and Mass Rage. Suppose my opponent puts Hellfire Maniac in front of my Pao Wrecker and Goblin Scout. Does Goblin Scout attack Hellfire Maniac? I believe that creatures attack in the order they were deployed. So if Goblin Scout was deployed after Pao Wrecker, Pao Wrecker will first attack Hellfire Maniac, killing it, and then Goblin Scout will attack whatever's behind Hellfire Maniac (and not take 4 damage since it isn't attacking Hellfire Maniac).

    Timing of attack triggers
    Hellfire Maniac and Wolf Trainer trigger after the attack deals damage, but Soulfire triggers first. So if you have a creature with 4 (or more) Attack and your opponent puts Soulfire on it, it will die before it gets to deal damage if you ever try to attack with it. What about Avenging Wings and Deadly Hail?

    Evade and Sweep Attack
    Cerberus cannot hit Rakshasa even if it's right in front of it. I have also seen two Rakshasa jump out of the way of one Cerberus, but I'm not sure if that always works. Suppose I have a Rakshasa on lines 1 and 3, and my opponent attacks with Cerberus on line 2... assuming there are no other creatures, is it possible for the Rakshasa on line 3 to go first and evade up and thus prevent the other Rakshasa from evading?

    Evade and Area Blast
    I know that if Chaos Lacerator attacks Rakshasa and Rakshasa evades, Rakshasa will take area blast damage.

    Timing of spells and death triggers. (Like Chaos Imp but for Standard.)
    If I cast Insect Swarm killing Thrall of Hatred and a bunch of other demons, I take no damage. And if I Soulreaver an Osmotic Breeder, it does not produce a token. Also, I think that Ice Meteor will kill a lone Spellhungry Breeder and my opponent will not take damage.

    Stacking and Boneyard
    If you (or Boneyard) deploy a second Venom Soldier on top of another Venom Soldier, the stack size will increase but the second Venom Soldier will go to your graveyard. This way, with just two Venom Soldiers and a Boneyard, you can build a stack that grows by 1 each turn.
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  5. #5
    malkorion's Avatar Senior Member
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    @Xyx0rz:

    Soulfire triggers after the attack and resolves first.

    Evade + Sweep Attack / Area Blast are incredibly confusing for me.

    With a Thrall of Hatred out, at least 1 damage should be dealt. When you Soulreaver the Osmotic Breeder, it doesn't produce a token because Soulreaver resolves first, and by the time a token could be put into play, the Breeder is already dead, so it can't trigger its effect. Card effects resolve before the effects they trigger.

    As for stacking - Initially, I've thought that when you start stacking creatures, the creature that you put into the stack disappears (and I think it should).
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  6. #6
    ZergRusher's Avatar Duel of Champions Grandmaster
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    Lots of great feedback!! Thanks a lot guys!

    I will ltr, prolly next week update the masterpost, and write thank you notes and acknowledgements and will try to respond to most posts.
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  7. #7
    ZergRusher's Avatar Duel of Champions Grandmaster
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    Originally Posted by Portios86 Go to original post
    Tear in the veil+crusher but I think it´s already explained with the arkath´s example.
    you're right but i'd like to make it as comprehensive as possible to i added it as well

    Originally Posted by Shambell Go to original post
    It's not exactly wrong but somewhat blurry... Yes, your definition is better.


    Cannot Attack and Fear [X] don't have the exact same effet.
    Cannot Attack stop you to attack at all.
    But Fear X no, it's a passive ability creating a "shield" preventing an attack from you on a specific creature if you don't have the might, the other possible targets are not impacted.
    An aura of impressiveness if you prefer, something that make you reconsidere your aggression because you don't know if you have the strength (cf. Might value) even if you have all your mind. A "too big for me" factor, this without obligatory loss of sanity.
    So if you wanted to have Focused Mind usable against Fear X, your text box should be changed according to this to mention specifically Fear X.
    Here, we reach one of the normal limitations of card game... sometimes, it doesn't sound logical at first sight.
    But the game is not made to be exactly logical like in real life but to only be internally coherent, not too deviant and, I hope, fun.

    Me, I find it illogical to be able to attack with Hangman Tree+ Focused Mind; how a stupid tree should be able to attack an opponent ?
    But it's coherent rule wise so be it.


    No, because even if the difference is subtle, the wording is not the same.
    On one side, you have the ability "Cannot Attack".
    On the other side, you have the sentence "Rakshasa Raja cannot attack a hero"
    Note the uppercase letters C and A not present in the second case.
    The Rakshasa can attack... but some rule forbide him to attack a hero.
    If he has, let's say, a code of honor, why focused mind should be able to change this ?
    thanks you for a great response. I especially like the example with the Tree. It shed some light on the logic - rules coherence interaction. Obviously Focused Mind should work with Tree even if it's illogical.

    Having read your post i have to say i still disagree with the notion that Focused Mind text is correct. We can settle on somewhat blurry as you called it. The main reason why i put Focused Mind in the WRONG WORDING/BUGS category is that the card doesnt do what is written on it. The phrase cannot be prevented from attacking for me (and i believe that for most players as well) involves allowing attacking a creature with fear.

    Originally Posted by Xyx0rz Go to original post
    I initially thought Melee-Shooters were a new thing because it's kinda weird and they so heavily intrude on flyer design, but it turns out that every set except Forgotten Wars has them, including Base Set 1.
    Yeah i also had the feeling at the very beginning that melee-shooters were kinda pushed. Now i'm used to the idea.I don't think that there were melee-shooters before 5T. I think that creatures from the expos before 5T were changed later to become melee shooters.

    Originally Posted by Xyx0rz Go to original post
    Flyers that aren't
    Thrall of Hatred and all of the succubi are clearly depicted as flying but they aren't actually Flyers. This means things like Air Trap and Father Sky's Wrath won't affect them. I personally think Thrall of Hatred should be a Flyer and the succubi should all be "Flyer-Shooters".
    yep i remember thinking for a long time that Thrall is a flyer - i've added it to the list

    Originally Posted by Xyx0rz Go to original post
    The order in which berserk creatures attack
    This is mostly relevant for Hellfire Maniac and Mass Rage. Suppose my opponent puts Hellfire Maniac in front of my Pao Wrecker and Goblin Scout. Does Goblin Scout attack Hellfire Maniac? I believe that creatures attack in the order they were deployed. So if Goblin Scout was deployed after Pao Wrecker, Pao Wrecker will first attack Hellfire Maniac, killing it, and then Goblin Scout will attack whatever's behind Hellfire Maniac (and not take 4 damage since it isn't attacking Hellfire Maniac).
    yes, i dont find it particularly confusing but maybe i should elaborate on the game rule about sequence of effects - something to do later

    Originally Posted by Xyx0rz Go to original post
    Timing of attack triggers
    Hellfire Maniac and Wolf Trainer trigger after the attack deals damage, but Soulfire triggers first. So if you have a creature with 4 (or more) Attack and your opponent puts Soulfire on it, it will die before it gets to deal damage if you ever try to attack with it. What about Avenging Wings and Deadly Hail?
    good examples? are there more cards like that? I guess we should prepare a list of such cards and one by one explain how they work exactly. - also i will leave it for later

    Originally Posted by Xyx0rz Go to original post
    Evade and Sweep Attack
    Cerberus cannot hit Rakshasa even if it's right in front of it. I have also seen two Rakshasa jump out of the way of one Cerberus, but I'm not sure if that always works. Suppose I have a Rakshasa on lines 1 and 3, and my opponent attacks with Cerberus on line 2... assuming there are no other creatures, is it possible for the Rakshasa on line 3 to go first and evade up and thus prevent the other Rakshasa from evading?
    Evade and Area Blast
    I know that if Chaos Lacerator attacks Rakshasa and Rakshasa evades, Rakshasa will take area blast damage.
    yes this has to be explained. I need to create some pictures but it should be done in a couple of days - good points

    Originally Posted by Xyx0rz Go to original post
    Stacking and Boneyard
    If you (or Boneyard) deploy a second Venom Soldier on top of another Venom Soldier, the stack size will increase but the second Venom Soldier will go to your graveyard. This way, with just two Venom Soldiers and a Boneyard, you can build a stack that grows by 1 each turn.
    added to the list
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  8. #8
    Originally Posted by ZergRusher Go to original post
    Having read your post i have to say i still disagree with the notion that Focused Mind text is correct.
    In this your are right and I think the same. The text box is too vague and so allow differents interpretations.

    Originally Posted by ZergRusher Go to original post
    Evade and Area Blast
    I know that if Chaos Lacerator attacks Rakshasa and Rakshasa evades, Rakshasa will take area blast damage.
    yes this has to be explained. I need to create some pictures but it should be done in a couple of days - good points
    There was a discussion on this subject some time ago on the french board.
    One conclusion made by some was that the description of the ability was false as it is today.
    It shouldn't be "Deal [X] damage to all creatures adjacent to the attacked creature. (Also affects friendly creatures.)" as it is too vague
    but something like "Deal [X] damage to all creatures adjacent to the (initial) position of the attacked creature. (Also affects friendly creatures.)".

    When the ability was introduced, there was in effect no difference between the two definition.
    But with the introduction of evasion, this changed.
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  9. #9
    Coral Ohyaku: It's obviously buggy interactions to me. She can't prevent you from deploying a creature - it's only a matter of whether it's possible to deploy these tokens somewhere else when playing cards like Bone Setter and Bone to Bone - if it is, then you deploy every of them in front of Ohyaku - if it's not, then she can't stop you from deploying them anywhere else.

    Focused Mind: I was and still am of the opinion that it should remove every effect that prevents creature from attacking. And it doesn't matter if it's Fear or a special, not keyworded ability - the effect is the same: creature cannot attack. It's really simple if you think of it that way.

    Disintegration: You are right but it seems our CMs still don't quite grasp the fact. Let's hope devs will notice that.

    Arcane Mastery: Immune to Retaliation doesn't prevent from or reduce any damage, the damage is just not dealt. Simply bugged.

    Chaos Imp: It's rather a known fact now that since some patch, effects trigger in a first-in first-out order, not like traditionally, on a stack (though I don't really understand why). It's quite confusing at first but still understandable: firebolt resolves first, killing the imp, then normally imp's ability would resolve but since it's no longer on the battlefield, it doesn't happen.

    Area Blast: I agree with Shambell.

    Melee shooters: I agree. In heroes, if you had a creature in melee range of your shooter, you simply wasn't able to shoot, only attack this melee. Also, it makes distinction between melees, shooters and flyers less clear and important. To me it would be certainly better to let melee-shooters in front row attack only as melee, and in back row as shooter. Currently melee-shooters are just better flyers. But yeah, it's probably too late.

    Creatures with wings: Also, as we're already on topic about melee-shooters, some of them don't really look like they could be meleee or shooters. The most silly is probably haven token, a soldier shooting with his sword. I understand that tokens don't represent single, particular creatures but rather armies, but it would've been better if artwork depicted that.
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  10. #10
    Originally Posted by ZergRusher Go to original post
    [*] Melee shooters "shooting" from the front line - In melees/shooter/flyer you can tell exactly the type of creature because melees are on the front, flyers move (fly) and shooters are on the back. Melee-shooters can be deployed on any position but there is no animation to indicate that they are melee-shooters. I've seen so many players, even experienced ones, making so many mistakes that i dunno if this feature should exist at all.
    I think introducing melee-shooter creatures was unneeded at all. It was pretty clear with melee-shooter-flyer system and melee-shooters didn’t bring anything new except a possibility of ranged attack from first line. In fact, melee-shooter mechanics didn’t make the game more complex, but a bit simpler instead, since first line-second line units balance and second line “safety factor” now have less influence to the game. In other words, creature positioning became less complex and important than before.

    Also, melee-shooter counted as both melee and shooter regardless of its position is a design flaw IMO. Holy Praetorian and its all adjacent friendly creatures blocking two damage from both Decay Spitter and Wretched Ghoul located in the same row or Xorm’s ability buffing second line Hatching Breeders together with all his melees is rather unbalanced and just weird.
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