Viper handling dumbed down .. I don't think so .. | Forums

[Retribution]

Well let me save you a little time, none of my replays have FMX advantages. 1 down, 999 more to go.

RL should just focus on the top 100 runs of each trials track. Then from therein on, if an coffin runs pops up somewhere on there, it can be reported here and deleted manually.

[sebastianaalton]

You really want to have someone watch all these replays?! O_o There are thousands and thousands of replays to watch.
But you can detect if the right stick was moved. Wouldn't it be better to kick all those replays? I know, it would affect some "innocent" replays but effort <-> benefit is just not in relation to another if you would wipe them manually.
And seriously, how many serious speedruns include a trick? I have other things to do while speedrunning than caring for tricks. (Unless there is a ridiculously high jump somewhere)

Nobody really cares if someone did a coffin and placed at 1000+ with that run. We don't need to delete that score. Serious speed runners are only interested in those scores that cannot be beaten by a good legit score. To delete those scores that ruin the leaderboards we don't need to go though more than maybe top 20 best scores of every track (and a bit more for some beginnner tracks).

Btw, not just the coffin trick alters your bike movement mid air.

Coffin is the only trick that causes a nonzero total force to the rider+bike in air (thus it breaks the laws of physics) = NOT GOOD. We don't simulate real air resistance, so having a zero total force is enough to ensure that bike gets no extra momentum in air to any direction (no matter how you wiggle yourself in the air). This is how real physics work.

[sebastianaalton]

RL should just focus on the top 100 runs of each trials track. Then from therein on, if an coffin runs pops up somewhere on there, it can be reported here and deleted manually.

Exactly. We should first make the top of the leaderboards clean, and then people can report remaining Coffin exploits the same way as they exploit glitched/cheated scores. The patch will fix the exploit so no new exploited scores will appear. I think this is the best way to handle this exploit. Of course all other ideas to solve this mess are welcome. Community feedback is important in this matter.

[morrillo]

Exactly. We should first make the top of the leaderboards clean, and then people can report remaining Coffin exploits the same way as they exploit glitched/cheated scores. The patch will fix the exploit so no new exploited scores will appear. I think this is the best way to handle this exploit. Of course all other ideas to solve this mess are welcome. Community feedback is important in this matter.

+1 Seb, LB wipe seemed harsh to me.
If you guys are willing to do the manual deletions, we will be willing to report them all. Job done.

[Fl4m3rX]

Nobody really cares if someone did a coffin and placed at 1000+ with that run. We don't need to delete that score. Serious speed runners are only interested in those scores that cannot be beaten by a good legit score.

Okay, you a point right here.

But I would definitely go through more than 20 replays. I'm good, but not one the best. I place somewhere between 100 and 500 on most tracks and I would still be pissed if someone were placed higher than me with an unfair advantage.

And how do you technically want to fix this from happening now? Will coffins not be allowed anymore?

[Guunners]

Coffin is the only trick that causes a nonzero total force to the rider+bike in air

According to this video, the Superman trick also causes a nonzero total force. It doesn't help to be faster though (but slower). Hope this helps!

[morrillo]

And how do you technically want to fix this from happening now? Will coffins not be allowed anymore?

Good question: personally I would want FMX disabled from Trials tracks, but that's just my opinion. Trials is Trials, the pure game we fell in love with, and FMX is an addon that should have stayed separate.
Many will obviously disagree with me.

[Fl4m3rX]

According to this video, the Superman trick also causes a nonzero total force. It doesn't help to be faster though (but slower). Hope this helps!

That's what I don't understand - how could FMX tricks affecting gameplay NOT be seen?! Even with the maths one of the devs made somewhere here about testing time - it is so extremely simple to test. I have only built one track because of the achievement in HD or Evolution and even I can place the rider mid air and a barrel underneath him in just a minute.
Really, there are no excuses for not noticing!

[emcee]

They could make FMX on single player tracks only possible on the Foxbat?

[sebastianaalton]

That's what I don't understand - how could FMX tricks affecting gameplay NOT be seen?! Even with the maths one of the devs made somewhere here about testing time - it is so extremely simple to test.

Modern software engineering isn't simple. We are talking about projects that have millions of lines of code. During an average game project, the team goes through at least 10000 bugs/tasks. There's always bugs that fly under the radar and never get caught.

I single bug is extremely easy to reproduce if you know what you are looking for, but if you don't know a bug exists it's very hard to find it.

For example in Trials HD we didn't notice the physics violation bug caused by braking. To make Trials HD bike more playable, we limited the force to the bike that lifted the bike front wheel up (to make it wheelie less easily). Engine rotational force spins the back wheel and by physics laws it of course spins the bike body in the opposite direction (divided by mass difference). This was good, and made the game better. However not even the community noticed for long long time that this allowed an exploit. If you press brake, the back tire stops and all the momentum from it transitions to the bike body, giving it a forward rotation. Now when you press both gas and brake, the gas rotates the back wheel forward, but only applies the inverse force partially to the bike body (to make it wheelie less easily). But the brake stops the wheel and fully transforms the wheel rotational energy back to the bike body. As a result the body get slightly more forward rotational momentum (breaking the laws of physics). This is a technique that all the players playing hard extremes/ninjas know well. Hold the gas and rapidly press the brake, and the bike hull rotates slightly forward. It's a bug and it wasn't found during the project, and nodoby found in the first year of Trial HD life time. I was actually number #1 in global leaderboards for the first 3 months of Trials HD life time, beaten by Lestropie of course. I don't remember who was the first one to actually find that bug, but it got really popular in Trials HD (and Trials Evolution) ninja tracks.