I really hope DLC won't be required to play TC tracks that use DLC objects | Forums

[geordiedeviant]

You beat me to the punch! Just what I was going to say. Only issue is, if 10% of the player base are the main participants over the long run, then it may not be worth the time investment for RL as they could be working on other things. Great idea though

@Sebastian You are a Jewel. It makes such a big difference to the community when you take the time to engage with us. It's very much appreciated !

It's not something I want introducing really as I'd rather they focus on EVERYTHING else. Maybe next game it could be discussed if it would help. Problem is and you'll know this from Battlefield, borderlands, other various games with compat packs. The initial download can be quite hefty in size.

I was just wondering if it was ever discussed and what the reasons were behind not going that route. (just being nosey really)

[cantpickname0]

Why would you not buy the dlc? The amount of content in it for evo was insane for the price you were paying, I just hope fusion dlc is of the same quality.

[qbicfeet]

Really good post. Let me explain my personal opinion about this matter.

Hardcore players and level builders are a small minority of the whole player base. This group is less than 10% of the whole player base. This is the part of the player base that visits the forums frequently, gives us feedback and ideas for next Trials games, attends the track building community, votes for RedLynx picks, create YouTube videos about the best shortcuts and ninja tracks. This 10% of the player base is where all our biggest long term fans are.

Hardcore players (this group includes me) buy all our DLCs because they want to complete in the new build-in tracks. Level builders buy all our DLCs because they want to get access to the new game worlds, new tools and new objects. This 10% of the player base will buy the all the DLCs no matter what. You suggestion would mean that only this 10% of the player base should buy the DLCs, and the other 90% of the player base (casual players not involved in the community) should get the DLC worlds, objects and huge majority of tracks for free. The only reason for these casual players to buy the DLC would be the build-in tracks and extra editor features. I don't think that's enough for the casual players, since they don't want to compete in the global leaderboards and they don't want to build tracks.

The current model where everyone participates in the cost allows us to keep DLC prices dirt cheap (5$) while still including lots of stuff in every DLC. I think this model is the most fair one for our hardcore fans and the level builders in the long run. But this is just my personal opinion. I understand that some persons might have different opinions.

Thanks for the reply. When you put it like this it's much easier to see why you manage DLC the way you do, especially the part about how built-in tracks and more level editor functionality isn't enough of an incentive for casual players. Sometimes it's hard to see it from this point of view when you are part of the hardcore minority.

Little Big planet isn't a fair comparison, since LBP DLC level packs include only five/six levels each (and the price is up to 7$). Costume packs that have five costumes (and a few stickers) are up to 6$. Let's compare this the Trials Evolution "Riders of Doom" DLC: It had 35 levels (20 trials, 10 skill games, 5 supercross), multiple costumes, a new game world, a new bike and over one hundred new objects. In LBP you'd have to buy around 5 DLC level packs and a few costume packs to get as much content, the total price in LBP would be over 40$.

I also don't know how Little Big Planet manages to bring the content to players who haven't downloaded the DLC pack (next gen DLCs can be several gigabytes). Our level files are very small (less than 100 KB) so we can't include the used object textures or 3d-models inside the level files. We want to keep the download times of the community custom tracks as low as possible. Waiting for multiple minutes to download a 100 MB track wouldn't be much fun.

I think LittleBigPlanet is a fair comparison and while their monetization model is a little bit different and more greedy than yours, there are still many similarities. LBP levels, just like your Trials levels, are basically just data over objects' properties and their position in the world - you don't download any actual "models" or textures and the level file sizes remain small.

The reason anyone can play LBP levels created using DLC they don't own is because all the DLC data is already available in the game files (and new content is patched in every so often via title updates), so they don't have to download any new models or content apart from the level data itself. When you purchase a piece of DLC you essentially "tick" a checkbox that gives you access to all the new DLC in the game's story mode and/or editor mode.

If I understand the way Trials does it, you actually download all the new models and files when you purchase the DLC. If you instead opted to force everyone to download the new (locked away in the game data until you purchase it) models via a patch/title update every time you release a piece of DLC, load times would be exactly the same as they are right now.

But I still get your PoV and I understand why it is the way it is. It makes sense.

Side note: I really appreciate that you take the time to discuss things like these with the community, especially this thread in particular since monetization can be a quite sensitive subject to many developers. Super grateful for the response.

[apdenton1]

If I understand the way Trials does it, you actually download all the new models and files when you purchase the DLC. If you instead opted to force everyone to download the new (locked away in the game data until you purchase it) models via a patch/title update every time you release a piece of DLC, load times would be exactly the same as they are right now.
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LOL. Please don't encourage this. Observe what you are saying. You know the current state Fusion is in, where many are unhappy? If they spent time making DLC in the standard dev cycle, problems with Fusion would be more numerous, and there would be less content, because they would have been making locked up "DLC" instead of working on the actual game.
It's all kinds of wrong and literally the worst thing to be cooked up by the game industry in recent years. Bless RL and may they never follow suit.

RL's DLC model is perfect, I appreciate that about them, and they are extra generous with the amount of content too, bonus respect points for them.
I wasn't sure if I was going to buy Fusion DLC this time around (money problems), but you just reminded me why I really should if I can, good job.

[geordiedeviant]

LOL. Please don't encourage this. Observe what you are saying. You know the current state Fusion is in, where many are unhappy? If they spent time making DLC in the standard dev cycle, problems with Fusion would be more numerous, and there would be less content, because they would have been making locked up "DLC" instead of working on the actual game.
It's all kinds of wrong and literally the worst thing to be cooked up by the game industry in recent years. Bless RL and may they never follow suit.

RL's DLC model is perfect, I appreciate that about them, and they are extra generous with the amount of content too, bonus respect points for them.
I wasn't sure if I was going to buy Fusion DLC this time around (money problems), but you just reminded me why I really should if I can, good job.

So basically don't do a Capcom

[qbicfeet]

LOL. Please don't encourage this. Observe what you are saying. You know the current state Fusion is in, where many are unhappy? If they spent time making DLC in the standard dev cycle, problems with Fusion would be more numerous, and there would be less content, because they would have been making locked up "DLC" instead of working on the actual game.
It's all kinds of wrong and literally the worst thing to be cooked up by the game industry in recent years. Bless RL and may they never follow suit.

RL's DLC model is perfect, I appreciate that about them, and they are extra generous with the amount of content too, bonus respect points for them.
I wasn't sure if I was going to buy Fusion DLC this time around (money problems), but you just reminded me why I really should if I can, good job.

Do you even understand what you are reading? Where did I suggest that they should do disc-locked DLC?

sebastianaalton said that non-DLC owners can't download DLC TC tracks because they don't have the DLC models and data on their systems, so I said that this could be circumvented simply by forcing everyone to download the DLC models every time new DLC is released, and have that content locked away from you until you purchase the pack.

The only difference between this solution compared to what we currently have is that everyone would have to download a couple of hundreds of megabytes of content they might not want or use, but when it would come with the ability to swiftly and easily play DLC TC tracks without owning the DLC in question I can't see how anyone would complain about those downloads. It would be the EXACT same business model as the one that is in place right now, except allowing anyone to play on any custom tracks.

Please try and comprehend what is posted before you jump down someone's throat.

[apdenton1]

Do you even understand what you are reading? Where did I suggest that they should do disc-locked DLC?

sebastianaalton said that non-DLC owners can't download DLC TC tracks because they don't have the DLC models and data on their systems, so I said that this could be circumvented simply by forcing everyone to download the DLC models every time new DLC is released, and have that content locked away from you until you purchase the pack.

The only difference between this solution compared to what we currently have is that everyone would have to download a couple of hundreds of megabytes of content they might not want or use, but when it would come with the ability to swiftly and easily play DLC TC tracks without owning the DLC in question I can't see how anyone would complain about those downloads.

Please try and comprehend what is posted before you jump down someone's throat.

Whoops, I got served

It's building and a lack of sleep, it drains me mentally, use all my brain power, lost in code, effects my reading comprehension (and probably writing too) ...that's my excuse.

Yes, now that I comprehend what you said I agree, if there are no downsides to it.

So basically don't do a Capcom

Not just Capcom...

[sparkierjonesz]

what i would like to ask is why would people buy the dlc if they can get the tc tracks for free
sp tracks become pointless because the community can create more and better tracks( sometimes )
only builders are interested in the new objects
the new world is also pointless
the bike not sure if people want this, certainly because they can't be used on the old sp tracks

i don't see why people wouldn't buy the dlc the way it is now, either they don't have the money or they don't play the game anymore

[Carmine9437]

Nothing but respect for seb with his response. At $5 if a casual player wants to play a wider variety of tracks and build with more objects they will buy the DLC. I know all of us bought the season pass and once TC becomes cross platform we will be able to enjoy everyone's courses. I do like the idea of having some of the courses available in mp once that is added, but I can understand why they wouldn't do it if they choose not to.

[UnrealSK]

The reason I dislike putting user-created behind a paywall is because I, as someone who is passionate about sharing my creations, want as many players as possible to be able to enjoy my tracks, which is already hard since the game is on four separate platforms with no cross-platform connectivity. The version of my choice, PC, is also the weakest of the four with about 40k players and less than 400 custom tracks, which means that your tracks have a pretty narrow reach. Add a DLC-paywall into the equation and it gets even narrower..

You described the main problem here, it is not about DLC packs, the problem is that Track Central is not cross platform as it should be (at least on Xbone/PS4/PC).. I saw a comment from developer, that they are looking into possibility to make track central cross platform. It would be good if developers can respond on this question, if this is possible and if they plan to implement cross platform track sharing, because it will fix the problem with small PC community. Currently, there are hundreds of tracks on PC track central, but thousands on consoles. I do not see a reason why we can't play tracks from PS4 or Xbox one

//Just a suggestion, if cross platform is not possible, can you release a PC patch with community tracks from other platforms?