Senior Member
I've mean it the opposite way, apdenton1Originally Posted by apdenton1
I was patronizing you for your nonsensical posts and applauding your announcement to leave the thread.
But I like you Blaster, you are funny and smarter than you appear to be. Hang around if you want, but only if you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8_Ts5fMVho
Senior Member
Sigh.. This again.. Sorry in advance for insulting peoples beliefs, but this topic can really get me going... And sorry for the length too
Firstly, how can people be so ignorant as to belive that the entire universe contains only us?? Seriously? I mean SERIOUSLY????.. Do you just close your eyes and minds, and fumble your way into life and exsistence with some book as your guidance? A book that has been modified frequently to fit the current time and knowledge. I guess there is no reason to mention the books name, should be pretty obvious, but the fact that they need to edit it just seems fishy to me.. Like everything else in it too btw
Look at the size of the universe.. Look at the age of the universe, the distances, the amount of planets and suns etc... I mean, look at us!.. Are we the top of what this entire universe/ exsistence can muster? I hope not.
Look at our own planet. Time and time again, the earth is struck by various catastrophes, yet life will not go away.. Ever.. When the planet is heated when the sun will go nova on us, sure, everything will die, but until then, life have and will always prevail. I mention this because this planet is made of the same stuff as everything else in exsistence.. Everything!!! How can simple logic processes not start ticking in peoples heads when hearing that? If things work here, within the set of universal rules that exsist, why in the world would they not do so elsewhere?
There are already located a fairly large amount of these planets in the right distance to their respective suns, within the right size measures, it's real, it's documented, they exsist. There are even traces of ancient rivers of liquid water on mars, and ice below the surface. Jupiters moon "Europa", is a solid ice rock, possibly with liquid water beneath the ice. Water means life, whether it be bacteria, alge of more complex creations. I would not expect anything intelligent from there btw.. I mention this because, if we within our own tiny solarsystem have these planets and moons with water, then logic tells me that this will be the case in other solar systems as well. Water is life.
Another thing, "we" have only inhabited this planet for a very short time.. The planet is roughly 4 billion years old, we have been here for what, 50-100.000 years? All this for us? For our short blip of a lifespan in this universe? For this supposed glorious species that destroys and corrupts everything that gets in the way of what we want? That kills people over religion, which btw is one of the things that scare me the most in this world. Fundamentalist religious people, regardless of what the religion may be. That is just psychos looking for something that can validate their petty hateful feelings and opinions. Tghe history of religion, or christianity at least, indicates that religion was used for rounding up people like sheep, to exploit. Here's an example, "Give the church half your crops and earnings, and you shall go to heaven when you die".. Scam anyone?? Guess it's just me..
Now, the whole story of jesus, that btw seems to be very close to the story of Horus, is in itself a beautiful story with many great philosophies, and Jesus could easily have exsisted. But not a son of god. As a man with a vision, or on a mission. When discussions turn to these matters, it all becomes speculation, I like to belive he did exsist, but the myth of the man and his abilities are exaggerated.
I belive in UFO's! UFO is, as previously mentioned, a unidentified flying object, not nessesarily from space. No brainer... I have no clue as to whether or not any exterterrestrial UFOs have been to earth, the distances are very big, so they have to have come up with something we can't do yet, that allows them to travel that far. But I am sceptical, and would like to see a ship or actual alien before I belive that.. But I want to belive
I belive in life all over the universe, there are too many planets in the goldielock zone for there not to be. Life on this planet also shows us that the term "Life" is very broad, and does not nessesarily refer to intelligent lifeforms, or even complex lifeforms. Bacteria, Alge whatever, is all life. Life can exsist in the most hostile enviroments, from living at the bottom of the oceans clinging to the scorching exhausts of the earths core, to the coldest driest regions of the surface. Life is the single most consistent thing in all of exsistence, and therefore also something to take for granted. Noone waved a magic wand over this planet to create us, the mighty human race, in all our kindness and tolerance.. If that is the case, someone messed up BIG TIME!!
Oh and all that crap about saving the earths exsistence with taking better care of the planet is just stupid. Sure we should watch out for our planet, but the planet and life on it will prevail, an concour any challenge, we are trying to save the human race, which I am all for obviously, being a human and all, but just say that instead. Just cut the bull, and be straight up. Yea I know, that's a long shot..
Rant over for now, hope you at least had fun readingI will most likely edit in stuff, when I figure how many things I left out of the discussion.
Cheers all
Senior Member
@TheElmonator, very good read and i see where you're coming from.
but i have to say, depending on what you believe, it is entirely possible that we are in fact the only life filled planet (or system) in the universe, this may sound a little counter intuitive but bare with me, if you believe the universe has an age to it, say 14bln yrs, then our planets existence is only a quarter of the life of the universe and as one planet would have to be the "first" to show life then ours in this insignificant universal time frame could be just that, the first!
however, i find ageing the universe based on our local observation, albeit over a vastly huge scale, is just narrow minded, at least astronomers are starting to "see" beyond our observable universe, deriving through mathematical models that it most likely is in-fact infinite in size, makes me fully believe we are not alone.
as to alien visitation, i strongly disbelieve this has happened to us, i would like to think it has happened, purely as i like sci-fi and even spent some time reviewing some sites, but my conclusion from this was "im trying to sell my books/dvds" by hyping some trending alien discussion by misleading and adding just enough impossible to prove "facts".
its a shame people devote their lives to this, especially if they were seduced by misinformation just because someone wanted to make money though published material.
all in all i think we are not alone, as you said, its a vast universe and life is resilient, seeing algae growing in high concentration of sulphuric acid was enough proof for me.
Tardigrades are a good example of "Lifes" resiliance.
@Elmonator Thats a nice post, pretty much everything i'd want to say about religion and space.
Elmonator said this load of bollox "but the planet and life on it will prevail, an concour any challenge".Originally Posted by TheElmonatorOh and all that crap about saving the earths exsistence with taking better care of the planet is just stupid. Sure we should watch out for our planet, but the planet and life on it will prevail, an concour any challenge, we are trying to save the human race, which I am all for obviously, being a human and all, but just say that instead. Just cut the bull, and be straight up. Yea I know, that's a long shot..
To which I respond: "The only thing certain about life is uncertainty".
Well, apparently Aliens are real according to the FBI: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...nline-FBI.html
Holy crap. Just read that article. You can never be certain; it's hard to know what to believe in or who to trust, but this is rather extraordinary.
Roswell happened, something happened:
Either aliens exist or it is ******** made up for whatever purpose, such as the genetically spliced "Grays" in Deus Ex that were created as a scapegoat to distract from what was really going on at Area 51. Who knows, but "Flying disc" and the loooong history of sightings by many reputable people definitely means something.The headlines screamed: 'Flying Disc captured by Air Force.' Yet, just 24 hours later, the military changed their story and claimed the object they'd first thought was a 'flying disc' was a weather balloon that had crashed on a nearby ranch.
Amazingly, the media and the public accepted the explanation without question. Roswell disappeared from the news until the late Seventies, when some of the military involved began to speak out.
I made a Trials track about the Roswell incident some time ago. It was the rider that crashed a "flying disc" after he escaped the mothership, not aliens
Check the track out: "Alien Abduction!" (see, even using aliens for publicity is effective
Seriously though, check out the supposed Roswell documents from the source itself, the FBI: http://vault.fbi.gov/UFO
It's still not solid proof unfortunately..........
That's quite a can of worms you've opened. I'm not for big heated discussions myself, but I have no problem with civil discussions, so I will take the opposite stance. After people involuntarily fumble into life and existence, they look to something for guidance. The most common thing is the popular thought patterns of whatever culture or people group they happen to land in. Once they accept something as reasonable and base their lives on it, they close their eyes and minds to everything else, and if another way of thinking is even suggested they may make such exclamations as, "Seriously? I mean SERIOUSLY????"Originally Posted by TheElmonatorSigh.. This again.. Sorry in advance for insulting peoples beliefs, but this topic can really get me going... And sorry for the length too
Firstly, how can people be so ignorant as to belive that the entire universe contains only us?? Seriously? I mean SERIOUSLY????.. Do you just close your eyes and minds, and fumble your way into life and exsistence with some book as your guidance? A book that has been modified frequently to fit the current time and knowledge. I guess there is no reason to mention the books name, should be pretty obvious, but the fact that they need to edit it just seems fishy to me.. Like everything else in it too btw
The Bible in the form we have today was recognized as complete by around A.D. 350-A.D.400, affirmed by the Counsels of Laodicea, Hippo, and Carthage. The only language it was permitted to be translated into from the original manuscripts was Latin. This changed 1000 years later with the Protestant reformation, which affirmed (among many other things) that the Bible should be translated from the original language to the vernacular of the people so that all people could have access to it, not only for the sake of learning but also to keep church authorities from committing the atrocities that you mention later. The vernacular principle remains to this day, and the Bible is commonly re-translated, but all recognized translations are directly from the original language, checked, and double checked by scholars of the languages. This is not to change the Bible, or to confuse it, but rather to clarify it and to make sure the message remains clear.
Now, how this enters into a discussion about UFO's is beyond me. I am considered to be fairly familiar with the Bible, and I don't know of anything in it that diffuses the idea of life on other planets. Many Bible-believing people (myself included) see quite the opposite. In the beginning Genesis 6, there is mention of a race called the "Nephilim." No one knows exactly who or what this is referring to, but one theory is that it was a race that wasn't human, but compatible with humans and considering themselves superior to humans. My opinion is, I don't know and I won't pretend to, but I find it interesting. Another biblical argument for the existence of life in other parts of the universe lies in the teaching of God himself. God is infinite, meaning he is not limited in scope of time or space. If this is true, then every Bible-believing person should believe that the universe itself is infinite, and in an infinite universe every conceivable circumstance that can fit into the fabric of reality is not only possible, but necessary. Aside from these interesting tidbits, the most important point is that a well-informed belief in the Bible absolutely requires belief in extraterrestrial life in some form. The bible says, without doubt or apology, that Jesus physically rose from the dead, and after 40 days, physically ascended to heaven. It's necessary for those who believe the bible to affirm that Jesus is physically alive, body and mind, but he is not on earth. The obvious conclusion is that there is life beyond our experience, and the life is of a level of intelligence and power that is equally beyond our current experience.
Unfortunately, many people who claim to believe the Bible fail to either know what it says, or draw reasonable implications from it. Along with that, most people who disrespect it, or find it to be fishy, have also come to those conclusions without bothering to find out what it says. This is perhaps not the case with you, but it is a popular trend. These two groups are the ones shouting at each other, which means that the most heard opinions on either side are also the least informed.
As someone who believes in higher intelligence, I have no issue with this. One of the issues that inspired me to look beyond raw science and the trend of my own cultural mindset was the assumption that life always just happens, as though it's law, like gravity. I'm sure you've heard the arguments before, so I won't go into great detail, but the systems necessary for the existence of life are so complex, to the microscopic degree, that I couldn't accept that it just sorta happens. Once that life does exist, the development of the systems and senses to sustain life is not something I can reasonably accept as natural progression or law. But, if there is higher power than what has been observed or measured, then I'm sure things do work similarly elsewhere.Look at the size of the universe.. Look at the age of the universe, the distances, the amount of planets and suns etc... I mean, look at us!.. Are we the top of what this entire universe/ exsistence can muster? I hope not.
Look at our own planet. Time and time again, the earth is struck by various catastrophes, yet life will not go away.. Ever.. When the planet is heated when the sun will go nova on us, sure, everything will die, but until then, life have and will always prevail. I mention this because this planet is made of the same stuff as everything else in exsistence.. Everything!!! How can simple logic processes not start ticking in peoples heads when hearing that? If things work here, within the set of universal rules that exsist, why in the world would they not do so elsewhere?
There are already located a fairly large amount of these planets in the right distance to their respective suns, within the right size measures, it's real, it's documented, they exsist. There are even traces of ancient rivers of liquid water on mars, and ice below the surface. Jupiters moon "Europa", is a solid ice rock, possibly with liquid water beneath the ice. Water means life, whether it be bacteria, alge of more complex creations. I would not expect anything intelligent from there btw.. I mention this because, if we within our own tiny solarsystem have these planets and moons with water, then logic tells me that this will be the case in other solar systems as well. Water is life.
Obviously it's not just you. I'm sure you don't really think you're coming up with anything original. This sort of scam angered no one more than a man named Martin Luther, who sparked the protestant reformation with his "Ninety-five Theses" in 1517. The history of the Church is often one of the masses abusing and deviating from the bible, while a sometimes-too-quiet minority actually try to obey it. It's the same today, though since the Church has split into hundreds of denominations and variations, those deviations are more varied and less universal. One of the popular scams today is, "Join our church, give your life to Jesus, and he'll give you health, money, and happiness." The Bible says nothing about that. So yes, there are scams in any religion, since they are filled with people who tend to destroy and corrupt anything that gets in the way of what they want. What makes me nervous (and I'm being sincere here and not trying to flame in any way) is how atheists can be blind to the sordid history of their own philosophy. Millions died under the regime of Joseph Stalin, who was operating outspokenly in line with atheist beliefs. Of course, there have been hundreds of Atheist leaders who have not killed millions of people, so is it fair to define an entire group of people or their belief system by the outrageous psychotic self-interested few? That depends on the teachings and implications of the belief system. According to atheism, we are a cosmic accident. Life as a whole may be a marvel, but on an individual level there is no basis on which to ascribe any value to life. There is no higher authority than the will of man, and no reason to set one man's will as higher than another, which means we are completely free to do as we wish and we answer to nobody. Under atheism, there is no solid basis to determine good and evil, other than perhaps the passing moods of the masses, but since the masses are comprised of individuals who's significance is 0, opinion carries no weight, which means no one has any right to say that Stalin's actions were wrong. Stalin was a true atheist, and he had the power and the balls to act on his beliefs. Most people who claim Atheism don't have the balls to live under the implications of their beliefs, but the exact same thing can easily be said of people who claim Christianity. If Christians actually could manage to live under the authority of the bible, then the church would be a unified institution with a singular understanding of God, people, and the world which promotes peace and the preservation of human dignity. On the other hand, if all atheists lived up to the implications of their worldview, the age old law of "might makes right" would quickly reduce the world to chaos and anarchy.Another thing, "we" have only inhabited this planet for a very short time.. The planet is roughly 4 billion years old, we have been here for what, 50-100.000 years? All this for us? For our short blip of a lifespan in this universe? For this supposed glorious species that destroys and corrupts everything that gets in the way of what we want? That kills people over religion, which btw is one of the things that scare me the most in this world. Fundamentalist religious people, regardless of what the religion may be. That is just psychos looking for something that can validate their petty hateful feelings and opinions. Tghe history of religion, or christianity at least, indicates that religion was used for rounding up people like sheep, to exploit. Here's an example, "Give the church half your crops and earnings, and you shall go to heaven when you die".. Scam anyone?? Guess it's just me..
The common theory I've heard quite a bit recently is that Jesus outspokenly promoted peace and love and brotherhood, and people killed him for it. Nearly all scholars agree that Jesus was an actual historical figure, and he was publicly executed under the Roman government. No one has ever been charged with a capitol crime under an organized government for teaching peace and brotherhood. Jesus was charged with the crime of placing himself as a higher authority than Ceasar (a capital crime under the Roman law), and placing himself as equal with God (a capital crime under Jewish law). He was a considered to be a nutter by those in power, but he had a large enough following to pose as a threat to the local establishment. he was offered the opportunity to recant, but he refused, so the execution was carried out. His followers then scattered in fear and despair. That should have been where the story ended, but then he rose from death, thus proving his own claims. This is the biblical account in a nutshell. The thing is, if it's not true, it's the worst lie ever told in human history. It's placed billions of people over the past two millenia under moral obligations to a lie, and has cost millions of people, including 11 of the 12 original followers of Jesus, their lives. The ramifications of the story are everywhere. For instance, we live in the year 2013, because roughly 2013 years ago something happened that was significant enough to reset the timeline of history. If the story isn't completely true, then it's not in any way beautiful and the philosophies are vile and should be rejected and disrespected. It's also impossible to separate the story of Jesus from the rest of the Bible. The entire old testament points ahead to the coming of Jesus. The gospels explain Jesus as the fulfillment of the old testament (Law, Prophets, and Wisdom), and the book proceeding the gospels interpret the life and work of Jesus. The entire bible is about Jesus, and so the whole package must be accepted if it's found to be true, or rejected if it's found to be false.Now, the whole story of jesus, that btw seems to be very close to the story of Horus, is in itself a beautiful story with many great philosophies, and Jesus could easily have exsisted. But not a son of god. As a man with a vision, or on a mission. When discussions turn to these matters, it all becomes speculation, I like to belive he did exsist, but the myth of the man and his abilities are exaggerated.
Totally agreeI belive in UFO's! UFO is, as previously mentioned, a unidentified flying object, not nessesarily from space. No brainer... I have no clue as to whether or not any exterterrestrial UFOs have been to earth, the distances are very big, so they have to have come up with something we can't do yet, that allows them to travel that far. But I am sceptical, and would like to see a ship or actual alien before I belive that.. But I want to belive
I belive in life all over the universe, there are too many planets in the goldielock zone for there not to be. Life on this planet also shows us that the term "Life" is very broad, and does not nessesarily refer to intelligent lifeforms, or even complex lifeforms. Bacteria, Alge whatever, is all life. Life can exsist in the most hostile enviroments, from living at the bottom of the oceans clinging to the scorching exhausts of the earths core, to the coldest driest regions of the surface. Life is the single most consistent thing in all of exsistence, and therefore also something to take for granted.
Your conclusion that someone messed up big time is directly in line with the biblical view. However, where the secular theory would say that we are made flawed, and therefore God (if there is one) is the guilty party, the biblical view is that we were made free, and in our freedom have chosen and continue to choose rebellion. The ones who messed up BIG TIME are me, and you, and every human in history save one, who's name is Jesus, and who's mission was to receive the justice that we deserve in order to make mercy available to any who ask for it.Noone waved a magic wand over this planet to create us, the mighty human race, in all our kindness and tolerance.. If that is the case, someone messed up BIG TIME!!
None of this is intended as a personal attackmention this because such debates are often unpopular and taken as attacks on public forums) but as a defense of my own beliefs which I saw in your post as being disrespected. I'm never upset or intimidated by people disrespecting my beliefs, but I feel strongly that if people are going to go through the trouble, they should understand as much as possible what they are disrespecting.
