Justifying NINJA Levels in Evo. | Forums

[rlmergeuser]

Golf games are not easy either. Does that make them Ninja? No, it makes them gimmicky, just like the "don't touch this color with this tire or else" tracks. It's no longer a track, it's a skill game.

Skill games don't have checkpoints, and declaring a track a skill game just because it features a certain obstacle is silly and arbitrary.

[DJ_2wItchY]

Golf games are not easy either. Does that make them Ninja? No, it makes them gimmicky, just like the "don't touch this color with this tire or else" tracks. It's no longer a track, it's a skill game.

Skill games don't have checkpoints, and declaring a track a skill game just because it features a certain obstacle is silly and arbitrary.

skill games do and can have checkpoints.

[RetiredRonin]

Golf games are not easy either. Does that make them Ninja? No, it makes them gimmicky, just like the "don't touch this color with this tire or else" tracks. It's no longer a track, it's a skill game.

Skill games don't have checkpoints, and declaring a track a skill game just because it features a certain obstacle is silly and arbitrary.

Saying that Skill Games can't/don't feature check points is blatantly false, so we'll ignore that.

The following explains why that type of skill game isn't a track, as it is just a harder form of this Skill Game from Trials HD:



If you make a track that uses obscure rules that must be explained in either the control pop-up or in the file description, such as "don't touch the green plank or your bike falls apart" then Yes, it's a skill game. A trials track should allow people to touch any, excluding explosive, track piece with any part of the bike without faulting.

[scottie1230]

If you make a track that uses obscure rules that must be explained in either the control pop-up or in the file description, such as "don't touch the green plank or your bike falls apart" then Yes, it's a skill game.

I agree with this. Eventhough some people use the "don't touch planks" brilliantly (E.g. Spargo, Danners) they still use rules that you wouldn't expect to see in a trials track.
Also, there is no such thing as a gimmicky obstacle.

[ClutchMystaFlex]

If you make a track that uses obscure rules that must be explained in either the control pop-up or in the file description, such as "don't touch the green plank or your bike falls apart" then Yes, it's a skill game.

I agree with this. Eventhough some people use the "don't touch planks" brilliantly (E.g. Spargo, Danners) they still use rules that you wouldn't expect to see in a trials track.
Also, there is no such thing as a gimmicky obstacle.

No such thing as a gimmicky obstacle? idk about that. Macs Track attack is a tough level 4 with no gimmicks at all. Going to say thats luck too?

For reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOmBP9gV3JQ
And surprise surprise. the same people that always pass level 4s passed this as well... but ya definetly luck..lol

[rlmergeuser]

I've never seen a skill game with checkpoints, but whatever. It's all irrelevant because that's not what the point of the thread is.

If you are talking about Evo Ninja tracks, then those older tiers have nothing to do with Ninja tracks.

Ninja tracks in Trials HD were tracks that were plain DIFFICULT because of the skill they required. Ninja tracks in Evo are difficult because people set you up on glitchy obstacles.

The fact that Redlynx has given people the ability to tag anything they create as a "Ninja track" hasn't changed the definition for what a Ninja track actually is. And just because Evo Ninjas sometimes feature obstacles that assume based on watching hundreds of videos. Never played the game) weren't possible to create in HD, doesn't mean that Ninjas have fundamentally changed.

On topic: I think that levels can be a little too broad sometimes. There can be a pretty huge gap from the easiest track of a level to the harder tracks of the same level.

[stllbreathnbdy]

Seems like you're just being argumetative for the sake of it Shifty. You were around in the HD Ninja era, you even made a track or 2.

I'm really not, and I apologize if that's the way it's being seen, and yes, I do like super difficult tracks.

You were around in the HD Ninja era, you even made a track or 2. Just because RL provided a Ninja tag for people to slap on **** tracks doesn't make those tracks Ninja...the reason the whole gimmick/pirate thing started.

But when does the use of the tag start to dictate the meaning? When people see Ninja, and it means "no front tire touches red" or "no rear tire touches green", then it keeps propagating until the vast majority of users think the same thing and you have 500 no-tire-touch tracks for every 1 more-difficult-than-extreme track.

People are going to assume that the no-tire-touch tracks are Ninja, and the 1 more-difficult-than-extreme track is labeled incorrectly.

I'm not being argumentative, I'm just saying that Ninja in regards to the vast majority of Trials HD players meant something totally different than what Ninja means to the vast majority of Trials Evolution players.

I think it would be EXTREMELY helpful if trials would have detailed descriptions of what each tag should imply. Honestly, it can be very easy for people to misinterpret the meanings of the tags, what with all the crazy ways people think and all.

Evo made great strides by adding license tests, and smoothing the difficulty curve. For builders, explaining the tags could really help make things more focused.

[sparkierjonesz]

I've never seen a skill game with checkpoints, but whatever. It's all irrelevant because that's not what the point of the thread is.

If you are talking about Evo Ninja tracks, then those older tiers have nothing to do with Ninja tracks.

Ninja tracks in Trials HD were tracks that were plain DIFFICULT because of the skill they required. Ninja tracks in Evo are difficult because people set you up on glitchy obstacles.

The fact that Redlynx has given people the ability to tag anything they create as a "Ninja track" hasn't changed the definition for what a Ninja track actually is. And just because Evo Ninjas sometimes feature obstacles that assume based on watching hundreds of videos. Never played the game) weren't possible to create in HD, doesn't mean that Ninjas have fundamentally changed.

On topic: I think that levels can be a little too broad sometimes. There can be a pretty huge gap from the easiest track of a level to the harder tracks of the same level.

it did change the defination of ninja tracks, maybe not for you personally, and for the people that use this forum

in hd it is perfectly possible that 1 million people didn't know what a ninja was and that it even existed, i didn't.

for me a ninja is a track harder than extreme, so the old hd meaning, but i know that if i want to find a real ninja like this that the ninja tag wont help alot because of all the medium gimmick ninja's(mainstream evo meaning)
ofcourse you can find the real hd ninja's too but you will have to look at titel and lb for that

[rlmergeuser]

Alright, so i have seen people say they judge ninja levels by how many faults they get on first run and or how many time outs. for example
Level 1: 20-40 faults
Level 2: 40-100 faults
Level 3: 250+ Maybe one time out
Level 4: 2+ time outs and or Never pass.
Level 5 : 10+ time outs.

But it think this system is broken because i have actually played tracks in the past that are titled Level 1 and passed it with 0 faults first try. Or, i passed Tough Mudder (Level 4) First try. I think levels should be justified by the amount of people who pass it and the average amount of faults on the LB

Thoughts guys? I'm open to any thoughts and opinions. Keep calm and ride on.

I think levels should be justified by THE BEST NINJA PLAYERS... I think TBNSoty, sugatin & gaman no genkai.
I say they are the best ninja players because these guys passed at least one track classified as ninja level 5 on Trials HD (no Malachyte because he don't play trials evo).

So, yes everyone can classified a ninja level... but only for yourself !
BUT I think these 3 players can classified a ninja level for everyone, simply because they are the best.


I judge ninja levels like that (for myself) :
Level 1 : 20 - 100 faults (or less than 20 faults but I watch some obstacles if they looks harder than extreme)
Level 2 : 100 - 300 faults
Level 3 : + 300 faults & + 20mins / or one time out
Level 4 : 2 times out
Level 5 : I don't want to try... I try... I rage-quit, I can't pass and I'm not ready to pass



ps : I know there is some really great other players like : Spargokuroth, Gmoney720, A7XfoREVer531, aBz xMaGiiK, DannersMac, TeLaRix, SouthSinger9749, (you) ClutchMystaFlex, etc... but these guys haven't passed a ninja level 5 on Trials HD (the base). *referring to the NTVL by Malachyte*
ps2 : I passed "Tough Mudder" first try too (~420 faults & ~24min), for me it's a ninja level 3. But TBNSoty said it's level 4, so I noticed on the video "ninja level 4". If he will change his opinion, I will change the title.

[DannersMac]

Whilst I can't say I really care much about what is what supposed level etc. I do think that in reference to your post Killlard that uhh.. sugatin doesn't play anymore lol, and I also don't think gaman no genkai much cares for level 4's+ anymore. The thing is about levels is that its entirely subjective, and all we're really doing here is trying to define words that cannot be defined objectively, so f*ck it. I think how we're doing at the moment is generally alright - that is to say there's general sorts of consensus at least amongst the more common ninja players about what sort of level a track is. Again, it doesn't matter, but people do love their classifications, and we've cobbled together at least some relatively vague way of doing it.

Whilst I understand what Shifty is saying about the definition of a word becoming what most people think it is, I can't necessarily say I agree with it. If the majority of people started referring to tables as bottles, I still would never consider a table to be a bottle, no matter how many people are saying it. I actually think that the 'gimmicky' aspects of ninja tracks have been gradually disappearing for quite a long time now, and I'd go so far as to say most people seem to have caught on that it really should just mean 'harder than extreme'. To say something isn't a legitimate trials track because you might fault when touching something seems kind of strange, when you consider that in the SP tracks you can go between two ramps and fault because there's a fail zone, or fault because you hit a saw. The only difference really is that these particular instances that will make you fault aren't explained in the track description, despite being more obvious in their intentions. Really, Trials is a 'skill'-based 'game', so, again, f*ck it.

Like I was saying, all we're doing here is trying to objectively define a subjective word. I mean, MUST I really point you people back to my '1. Really hard, 2. Really, really hard" post? I dunno why it hasn't caught on yet..