1. #1

    Curved Drive Lines Discussion

    I've recently gotten into a debate-turned-argument with a gentleman on YouTube by the name of "dmh79". I'd like to post the full discussion here to see what others think. I admit that I have become melodramatic and overly frustrated. Feel free to point out that I'm being a ******-bag as much as you like, but I'd also like to know some more general opinions on this subject.

    For the record, the discussion is taking place in the comments for this video.

    On to the debate:

    Originally Posted by Malachyte
    Another rule of thumb - try to stay away from curved drive lines for the most part, especially while the rider is airborne. Even sharp or moderate curves on? the ground look really bad. Personally I think curved drive lines shouldn't even exist at all (as they currently work anyway), but if you insist on using them, the only thing that doesn't look really stupid is a wide sweeping curve without any large jumps.
    Originally Posted by Malachyte
    In relation to my previous comment, sharper drive line curves on the ground could be made to look much better very easily with only two factors: It seems like it would be fairly simple to take into account only the speed of the rider and the angle of the turn, and have the bike automatically lean into the turn realistically. This change would be purely aesthetic and automated - in other words, you wouldn't have to control anything differently, and all existing replays should still? work.
    Originally Posted by Malachyte
    And finally, I'd like to say that I don't think mid-air drive line curves should be possible at all... unless the bike somehow magically sprouts wings and banks into the turns just as I suggested for on-ground turns. Still though, I don't really think there's a way to make mid-air curves work without looking really stupid... in any case,? as the game currently functions, any turns look unrealistic and strange simply because a bike should not turn like a car unless it's going REALLY slowly.
    Originally Posted by MOSpr0ductz
    Yeah, at the office, we? try to incorporate any curves into steep inclines. That way they aren't as noticeable.
    -Oski
    Originally Posted by Malachyte
    Hmm, yea, that's another good idea. steep inclines or really wide sweeping turns. Still though, just because you guys know how to make them look ok in the office doesn't change the fact that 99% of custom tracks that have curves at all completely misuse them. Don't you agree with me that it would be an easy patch? to simply program the bike to lean according to speed and the angle of the turn? (This wouldn't fix mid-air turns, but it could make all on-ground turns look much more natural)
    Originally Posted by Malachyte
    Something else to note - a lot of the respectable creators have stopped using curved drive lines completely because they almost always end up looking really bad. Implementing the change I suggested would not only make all the crappy on-gound turns in existing tracks look good, but it would encourage all the top builders to start implementing the feature a lot more. I think that curved drive lines are a? great idea conceptually - you guys just implemented them in a very sloppy way...
    Originally Posted by dmh79
    I'd imagine adding a lean into turns would only serve to ruin every track made so far. It would mean that the rider or bike would collide with trackside objects that were close to the driving line. It would mean that every track uploaded so far would need to be? deleted and they'd have to start over again.
    Originally Posted by Malachyte
    That's a good point. I guess you're right that implementing the change I? suggested would ruin tons of existing tracks. Too bad RedLynx didn't think this one through.
    Originally Posted by dmh79
    Mal man, calm down you`ve spoken about this several times now... I understand your conplaints though. But you should try the game first, you will get used to the look in most? cases. Also, the feature of curved driving lines adds some very nice options for cool new tracks.
    Originally Posted by Malachyte
    I know I've mentioned this before. I'm just trying to bring it up in as many places as possible in hopes that RedLynx will listen to me... I know I haven't played the game, but it's not like I'm complaining about the new physics or any other factor that's actually related to gameplay. I don't think curved drive lines would make the game harder to play - I just think they look like crap? because the bike doesn't lean at all - it's a purely aesthetic complaint, and playing the game won't change it.
    Originally Posted by dmh79
    The lack of leaning really doesn't impact in the game at? all. When you're concentrating on a difficult track you don't notice it at all.
    If you'd played the game then you'd know this already. It seems odd that you're complaining about a very small element of a game that you haven't even played.
    It'd be like me saying "I really don't like the shoes they wear in Skyrim. Please release a patch to fix it" even though I've never played the game.
    Originally Posted by Malachyte
    I already agreed that it doesn't impact gameplay at all, and that it's a purely aesthetic complaint. Maybe if YOU'RE concentrating on a difficult track YOU wouldn't notice, but I guarantee you that I WOULD. Maybe it's because I ride a bike in real life... seeing one turn as if it has 4 wheels just bugs the crap out of me, especially in a game with such renowned and realistic (although? exaggerated) physics - suspension, momentum, traction, you name it. Curves are so sloppy compared to the rest...
    Originally Posted by Malachyte
    Oh, and your theoretical Skyrim shoes argument doesn't work, because in that case it would just be ugly shoes - not something unrealistic and sloppy in an otherwise well designed game. A better analogy would be a realistic first-person shooter with only guns from real life, with realistic accuracy and clip sizes... and then a baseball bat gun that shoots exploding tomatoes. Not as a secret unlockable weapon, but as a main and unavoidable part of the? game.
    Originally Posted by dmh79
    Its all down to the skill of the creator. The ones with really sharp turns are usually pretty poor tracks. The tracks I've made have had very subtle turns in them that look fine. Although I try to plan it? so I don't have to use turns at all.
    My point still stands that a patch to add leaning wouldn't work at all due to the way tracks are laid out. Objects that were previously just close background items would get in the way of the bike. It would ruin pretty much every track made so far.
    Originally Posted by Malachyte
    Yea, that's exactly my point... the ones with sharp turns only look bad because RedLynx programmed the drive line curves in a really? sloppy manner, and all GOOD creators have taken to using turns very minimally or not at all. So then what the hell is the point of them if only "bad" creators use them, and good creators have just learned to steer clear of them? They should have been implemented in a better way, or not at all! And I already agreed with you that my proposed fix wouldn't work.
    Originally Posted by dmh79
    You see this is where the fact that you? haven't played the game has some relevance.
    If you'd have played it and used the full editor, you'd see that Red Lynx have given pretty much complete control over every aspect of track construction. Part of that included giving builders the ability to create any sort of curve they like, with no limits at all on the length of the curve or the severity of its angle. Its down to the builder to decide what works and what doesn't. Its not bad programming.
    Originally Posted by Malachyte
    I still disagree. The fact that I haven't played the? game has no relevance. I agree that the editor is certainly extremely versatile and vast in every other way, they just half assed the curved drive line aspect. What if I wanted to create a track where the bike actually leans realistically on curves? I couldn't. The only way to work with curves in a realistic way is to not use them at all or only make very wide curves. The fact is that RL implemented the curved drive lines in a very sloppy way.
    Originally Posted by dmh79
    You have to remember that this is in no way a realistic game. The physics? are good, but certainly not realistic. They were never meant to be. It plays more like a side scrolling platformer than a driving game. There are no controls for steering at all. Steering just isn't part of the game. It happens automatically.
    It would make no sense for just the cornering to be implemented realistically when it would be the only realistic thing in a game that has no focus at all on steering.
    Originally Posted by Malachyte
    The physics are extremely exaggerated, but still realistic in this context. People can do 30-foot drops in real life; you can do 300-foot drops in this game. People can do a double-back-flip in real life, you can do a centuple-back-flip in this game, etc. etc.? People cannot turn on a bike in real life without leaning AT ALL. People cannot turn in mid-air on any vehicle in real life at all. No, a moto-whip is not turning - it's rotating. Why do you care so much that I think curves look terrible?
    Originally Posted by Malachyte
    Curved drive lines could easily be implemented in a semi-realistic, exaggerated manner to fit with the? rest of the game. The rider should automatically lean, but should also be able to complete a u-turn with a 15-foot diameter at 100mph without sliding out or anything. Yes, I'm suggesting something that's unrealistic - but IS realistic within the already-defined exaggerated confines of this game.
    Originally Posted by Malachyte
    And I'm not suggesting the game should implement manual steering. I agree that what makes it so great is indeed that it plays like a side-scroller in a? 3D environment. But if RL decided to allow what is effectively a 2D drive-line curve through a 3D environment, they could have done it in a MUCH better way. The suspension is automated; you don't control it in any way, yet it is an accurate exaggeration of how suspension works in real life - just extra resilient. Why shouldn't curves be the same?
    Originally Posted by dmh79
    Because in trials (the real sport that this is an exaggerated version of) the focus is on balance more than speed. Imagine you are going full pelt round a corner and leaning fully, then you have to come to a sudden stop (which happens regularly due to all the obstacles and the style of the game). Does the rider suddenly flip back to the upright position? No, because It would look ridiculous. The fact is that you aren't usually going fast enough to need any real? leaning.
    Originally Posted by Malachyte
    You were making some valid points up until now, but honestly I've completely lost interest in this debate at this point. I mountain bike, and I've ridden tons of trails that involve high-speed turns immediately followed by slow, technical obstacles. It should be completely obvious on ANY kind of bike that you gradually lean less as you? slow down... haven't you ever seen a motorcycle on a windy road? Or watched the tour de france...? Or seen how any 2-wheeled vehicle turns in real life???
    Originally Posted by dmh79
    Not trails, but trials.
    No fast parts. Just slow but steady balancing on man made obstacles. Maybe they didn't have? it in the States. Youtube search "Kick Start Trials Easton Neston Park 1982" to see what I mean. Any leaning is minimal. A lot of the time its more about maintaining balance whilst remaining perfectly still in preparation for a difficult jump. There are no real high speed turns to speak of. That's what Trials Evolution is trying to emulate.
    Originally Posted by Malachyte
    OMFG. You are a ******g idiot. I already said, I'm aware that real-life TRIALS typically doesn't involve high speed, but if it DID, the competitors would have to LEAN into the turns simply because they are on TWO WHEELS? and NOT FOUR! If Trials Evolution was trying to emulate real-life TRIALS, then whey does it have so many high-speed tracks with massive jumps that are much more like MOTO-X than TRIALS? BTW, when I said "TRAIL" I was referring to a mountain bike TRAIL. It was not a typo. UGH.
    Originally Posted by Malachyte
    In real-life Trials, this is certainly true. But these games typically have much more high-speed obstacles than Trials in real life. If you have to take a turn quickly and then slow down significantly for an obstacle, it should happen the same way it would happen in real life: You lean, then you gradually become more upright as you slow down. Of course there's a transitional period...? now you're not making any sense at all. Why would you suddenly jump from a "full" lean to being upright???
    Originally Posted by Malachyte
    I've been riding a bike regularly for over 10 years. I know how they work. I mountain bike, but I? have friends that do bike trials, I've been to trials competitions - both bike and motorcycle trials. I have several family members who road-bike regularly. The fact is, bikes turn a certain way. Cars turn a completely different way. Just because real-life motorcycle trials typically doesn't involve high-speed turns doesn't mean that trials bikes would turn any differently if they DID have turn fast.
    Originally Posted by dmh79
    I realise that. But its not a problem with the game or the way its programmed.
    They had to work out a way of keeping the feel of Trials HD (which was limited to a straight line inside a warehouse) but adapt it to take advantage of the huge space that Trials Evolution offers track creators. They needed to add turns to allow this, but didn't want to change the control? method that fans know and love.
    Realistic leaning in corners had to be sacrificed to maintain that. Its really not a big deal.
    Originally Posted by Malachyte
    Surprise, surprise, I still disagree! I believe that implementing automatic leaning in corners could have easily been accomplished without changing the control method that fans know and love. The game would still play as a 2D side-scroller, bikes would? still stick to curved drive lines automatically - they would just APPEAR to do so in a more realistic way. Nothing about gameplay would be different. I do agree that it's too late to fix it at this point though without breaking existing tracks.
    Originally Posted by dmh79
    It really wouldn't work for the reason that I mentioned previously. If you were going into a corner at full speed, leaning over realistically as you say, then they come to an obstacle on the turn that requires them to stop hard, what would happen? In order to maintain the same controls they would have to immediately return to the upright position in a fraction of a second. They only other way to do it would be to make the bike fall over or change the control? method to include lean control.
    Originally Posted by Malachyte
    I'm pretty sure you're just trolling at this point. I've already responded to this exact argument. What do you think happens in real life when a biker of ANY kind has to do a sharp turn? and then stop? You go from being banked for the turn to being upright quite quickly, but it's not instantaneous...
    Originally Posted by dmh79
    lol I'm not trolling! Its just a discussion.
    The problem would be that it would need to be instantaneous, due to the nature of the game. If it wasn't then it would change the mechanics of the game.
    To be honest I think having leaning implemented would look more unnatural than it does without it. Real life trials generally don't have high speeds or sharp, fast turns.
    People just need? to learn to build better tracks. None of the Red Lynx tracks have sharp turns.
    Originally Posted by Malachyte
    I still disagree, and your argument? makes no sense to me. Sure, people should build better tracks... but they don't. RedLynx could have easily made so many crappy tracks look better by just programming drive line turns differently. Finally, while it's less significant, several in-game tracks have turns that look pretty bad to me as well...
    ... I'm pretty sure I got all that in the right order... although it's really hard to figure out with YouTube's convoluted reply-to-comment system. I'll update this if Mr. dmh79 replies again.

    Chime in with what you guys think on this matter. Again, point out as much as you like that I'm being a pretentious and nit-picky ******-bag. I won't disagree with that. But I'm still curious to see what others think of the fundamental basis of this argument.

    Discuss!
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  2. #2
    JoeRegular's Avatar Senior Member
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    Re: Curved Drive Lines Discussion

    I'll edit in a proper comment in a minute. For now I just have to say

    To the topic at hand I'd simply say, to a certain extent I agree with your point. Riding curves can look a tad unrealistic to the avid observer. It doesn't affect me in the slightest when I play though and even though you'll no doubt disagree, it wouldn't affect you either. It's an aesthetic and on an attempt on a track you're familiar with, going for a 0 or an high placing...nobody focuses on anything other than hitting the line/next obstacle properly.

    I honestly think this whole thing is a cry for help from your subconscious, you gots da Trials withdrawl and it's makin ya cranky man I think you need to play some Evo, it won't consume you like before...I promise mate
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  3. #3

    Re: Curved Drive Lines Discussion

    I think the reason that you care so much is that you do this stuff in real life. While you are right that it is not realistic that the bike doesn't lean, it doesn't bother me and it probably doesn't bother most people.

    And you were also right that sharp turns are pretty much impossible to do well and only wide, gradual curves will ever look good. However, even if your idea were added I don't think it would change this. Taking a sharp turn at 100mph will look stupid whether or not the rider leans into it, and it will still be unexpected and most likely cause you to slam your face into the next obstacle.

    I made a track that takes place on a huge, gradual curve and it looks fine. However if automated leaning were added then the rider would be leaning the entire track and it would probably look stupid.
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  4. #4

    Re: Curved Drive Lines Discussion

    Originally Posted by buttcheekofdeth
    I made a track that takes place on a huge, gradual curve and it looks fine. However if automated leaning were added then the rider would be leaning the entire track and it would probably look stupid.
    Again, my suggestion is to implement a change that takes both speed and curve diameter into consideration. For an extremely wide curve like this, the rider would lean only a couple of degrees - in effect it wouldn't even be noticeable. It's not like "lean on" and "lean off" - there should be varying degrees of leaning just like in real life. Have you ever been on a freeway with a very wide gradual turn and watched a motorcycle? It appears to "turn without turning" because the lean required for such gradual turns is hardly visible... but I guarantee it's felt by the rider nonetheless.

    Trust me. Had RedLynx implemented my idea in the first place, all on-ground turns would look better, or at least virtually the same as they currently do with really really wide turns.

    Oh, and I do agree that this seems to bother me WAY more than anyone else... as you said, probably because I bike in real life. I can just picture coming into a turn and trying to turn without leaning... I would immediately go flying off the bike in the opposite direction.
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  5. #5

    Re: Curved Drive Lines Discussion

    If the rider were to lean in turns I think it would look much worse and completely ruin the physics if you were playing a technical but curved section. It would be much harder to control while you are leaning. I also hated the curves at first and still hate mid air turns but I got used to ground turns and barely even notice them at all. I can understand why this is a big deal to you because you have only watched the game. When you are actually playing and get into a "zone" you don't worry about it.
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  6. #6

    Re: Curved Drive Lines Discussion

    Originally Posted by A7XfoREVer531
    If the rider were to lean in turns I think it would look much worse and completely ruin the physics if you were playing a technical but curved section. It would be much harder to control while you are leaning. I also hated the curves at first and still hate mid air turns but I got used to ground turns and barely even notice them at all. I can understand why this is a big deal to you because you have only watched the game. When you are actually playing and get into a "zone" you don't worry about it.
    Just like wide sweeping curves, really slow curves on highly technical tracks would be the same. Once again, factoring in both speed and curve diameter, with a wide sweeping curve it's high speed and REALLY wide diameter, so virtually no visible leaning. It would be the same for a sharp turn at a REALLY slow speed - there would be virtually no visible lean for that either. Again, comparing it to reality - if I turn my mountain bike at less than 10mph, I use the handle-bars - I don't lean. If I were to lean into a turn going this slowly I'd just fall over.

    The change I'm suggesting would mainly affect higher speed turns with small-to-medium diameters. Of course everything would be affected to some degree, but I guarantee you it would look good and be as realistic as possible within the confines of the game. Your rider would not all of a sudden lean 45 degrees to the side during an awkward slow-speed turn on a Ninja track.
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  7. #7

    Re: Curved Drive Lines Discussion

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=4IUrEVB0BA4
    I feel like it would ruin good tracks like this.
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  8. #8

    Re: Curved Drive Lines Discussion

    Look, I'm no physicist (where's Lestropie at when we need him??), but I have a decent sense for these things and I know when something just looks and feels completely wrong.

    If you want the nitty-gritty-sciency details, click here.

    I know you guys love this game, as I have loved Trials HD in the past, and your automatic reaction to my criticism is to defend the game and try to make counterpoints. But the fact is, that had it been done this way from the beginning there would have been absolutely no negative side-effects. Wide high speed turns would look the virtually same, and very slow sharp turns would look virtually the same. It would only make everything in between look better without messing up either of these extremed.

    Someone show this thread to Lestropie - I promise he would back up my arguments!
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  9. #9

    Re: Curved Drive Lines Discussion

    Originally Posted by A7XfoREVer531
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=4IUrEVB0BA4
    I feel like it would ruin good tracks like this.
    Dude, that's a VERY GRADUAL turn at a VERY SLOW speed. The rider would BARELY lean on this track with my suggested change... heck, on most parts of that track he wouldn't lean at all. Once again it would look virtually the same. Once again, you have to get out of the mind-set that it's either "LEAN_ON" for turns or "LEAN_OFF" for straightaways. What I'm suggesting would implement varying degrees of lean factoring in only two things - speed and turn diameter. Mid-air turns would still look like crap, but all on-ground turns would look either better or the same. There would be no negative side-effects. Stop grasping at straws.
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  10. #10
    JoeRegular's Avatar Senior Member
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    Re: Curved Drive Lines Discussion

    Again, aesthetically speaking you are correct. You need to accept the reasons why you care about this and everybody else is indifferent.

    Making this nitpick into a big thing is your subconscious way of convincing yourself you're right not to play the game

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