1. #41
    Originally Posted by sebbbi
    Biggest problem with the editor is that we didn't plan to release the editor when we started the project, so we didn't plan the server infrastructure and the game client to support user created level distribution, user created level high score tables, user level review/ranking system, etc, etc. These features require lots of extra work for the game, the server and the website
    Hi, 1st post, I know but I had to reply!

    I'm currently playing the demo version of the game and love it!
    Kudos on a job well done!

    I have a 4 year old son, and he loves the game also. it's amazing how quickly kids pick this stuff up.

    However, given the tracks available with the full version I'm still 50/50 as to whether to purchase the full game.
    Why? Longevity.
    Agreed the tracks are fun, but having played the full version at a friends house there is one glaring omission.
    A Track Editor.

    As simple as it may seem, I understand this isn't a straightforward process to implement.
    Sadly nobody considered this possibility when designing the game editor in the 1st instance.

    Being creative this is one of the major features I look for in a game.
    I've mapped for various FPS games and more recently Trackmania.
    The fun of playing your own creations and/or beating a friend on his own track is great!
    It seems you really missed a big selling point for the game for a great many people.

    I don't see it necessary to fill your servers with a plethora of badly designed user tracks with little or no testing.
    After all, why would we need to see who has the top time on a track only 10 people have downloaded and played?
    In fact why do you need to host or even record times on the tracks server-side at all?

    Instead have a 'User Tracks' menu section that plays locally only.
    The tracks can be hosted by the users via p2p or my preferred option they will be downloaded from a 3rd party source in the same vein many other games do.
    You create your track, pop it on a host and then link to it in the dedicated relevant forum section for others to d/l if they so choose
    So you can manually download tracks and pop them in the relevant folder and play them. You could record times for the custom tracks locally and a new community of gamers might emerge..who knows?

    Whatever you choose to do, please don't follow the example set by another FPS *ahem* developer and host a mapping contest whereby users forfeit any design rights they have over their creations and instead pretty much allow the game devs to release this new content (for profit!) to console owners..this is a real kick in the teeth for the PC community.
    It's also a very quick method to gain gain bad press.
    Who wants a bad reputation?
    (For the record, some of the community maps are actually better than the released full-version game content maps...go figure)

    Basically the release of a track editor is going to dictate my decision to buy the game in full or not.
    As it stands...great fun, but will grow boring very very quickly without the variety of new challenges.
    Sure, the planned 'bone-breaking' sounds in 1.7 are ..erm...an idea I guess, but hardly a selling point. They're merely cosmetic changes that add nothing to the desire to actually play the game, or keep you coming back for more.

    So without any impending plans to release the editor I'll stick with the demo for a quick-fix here and there.
    I could get extra downloadable dev tracks (upon game purchase) to make the grand total something like 45? tracks, but seriously, a few of the original tracks are like 3-10 seconds long.
    Even with the added dev tracks there isn't too much to pick from.
    I'm not asking for quantity over quality, but how about give us both?

    As it isn't a true multi-player game playing the same game over and over needs a hook to keep me coming back.
    Still waiting for that 'hook' i guess.

    Simply my two penn'orth.

    Regards
    Erb.
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  2. #42
    Thats an really good post there Erb. I agree with you totally. We don't need online times to keep our records. We don't even need replay (if that would be a problem to implent). We just need the ability to make our own track. We don't care if the map editor is extremly hard to use. We will lean and start making tutorials for other players. That how a community works!
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  3. #43
    sebastianaalton's Avatar Trials Developer
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    Originally Posted by Erb
    So without any impending plans to release the editor I'll stick with the demo for a quick-fix here and there.
    I could get extra downloadable dev tracks (upon game purchase) to make the grand total something like 45? tracks, but seriously, a few of the original tracks are like 3-10 seconds long.
    Even with the added dev tracks there isn't too much to pick from.
    Trials 2 Second Edition was a short (3 month) project with a limited amount of developers allocated to it. We had to priorise features, and making a top quality level editor would have meant the loss of many other new features in Trials 2 SE, such as ghost racing, teams, vastly improved usability and menu layout and real 3d physics engine integration (allowed much improved bike physics and new dynamic physics objects).

    Currently Trials 2 SE offers considerable amount of playable content for the price. The game includes 51 tracks, and on average it takes around 2-3 minutes to pass the easier tracks, around 10 minutes to pass the medium ones and more than 2 hours to pass the hardest track in the game (Inferno). Majority of the the top players have reached over 100 hours of playtime (few have reached 200 hours already). At the same price as Trials 2 SE you can buy a single Blu-Ray HD movie. The fun lasts around 2 hours.

    For comparison, you can find lots of games in the Trials 2 price range on these online sites:
    http://www.arcadetown.com/
    http://www.oberongames.com/
    http://www.miniclip.com/

    All the 19.90$ games I have tried from these websites offered considerably less playable content than Trials 2 SE.

    If you buy the full version, I can guarantee that it takes at least 2-3 weeks to pass all the 51 levels without faults. If you play 4 hours every day.

    I would have loved to have extra time to finalize the level editor to the quality standard required for the release. Unfortunately the harsh business reality prevented us from adding the editor to this game project. You can only create so many features with predetermined amount of resources and time.

    I can't really talk about our next projects, but I can assure you that I am doing everything I can to make sure we have good high quality editor tools integrated inside our next game. For a small team like us, the user created content would allow us to do less content in house, and still have more content for the players. Making this a pure win-win situation. This of course is just my personal opinion.

    Originally Posted by Erb
    Sure, the planned 'bone-breaking' sounds in 1.7 are ..erm...an idea I guess, but hardly a selling point.
    Actually several reviews mentioned that bone breaking sounds are missing, so we decided to add them. The bone breaking sounds were implemented and tested in less than 15 minutes by one of our programmers, as he made some other adjustments to the sound playing. Creating small features like this is a piece of cake. Creating a good level editor can take a month or two for several programmers (this is considerable amount of work in 3 month project).
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  4. #44
    Many Thanks for the kind words 2k3, and indeed the speedy reply sebbbi

    I certainly never intended for you to feel the need to defend the game's worth in relation to the price tag.
    Sorry if my original message gave that impression.
    I did state that I offer kudos to the devs on a job well done, and that I truly believe and stand by.
    I tried to illustrate that with an editor you'd have made a great offering even better.
    You'd have increased the game's longevity exponentially.
    For the likes of me, you'd have made the game essential as compared to a considered purchase. (Yep some of us are that nutty about making our own game content )

    However that said, good value-for-money is decided at consumer level...period.
    Information telling anyone else that product 'X' is good value compared to product 'Y' is never de facto. Especially if any bias is involved.
    'Good value' is purely subjective.
    I noticed you cited comparative game's lack of content as a selling point for Trials2SE - Surely including the editor would create fresh content indefinitely?
    That in turn making a game worth more to the end user.
    Just a thought



    Originally Posted by sabbbi
    Currently Trials 2 SE offers considerable amount of playable content for the price. The game includes 51 tracks, and on average it takes around 2-3 minutes to pass the easier tracks, around 10 minutes to pass the medium ones and more than 2 hours to pass the hardest track in the game (Inferno).
    Okay, I got the number of tracks wrong, but in my defence, I was guessing
    I should have perhaps been clearer on what I was referring to by the short tracks....Tutorial/training tracks. Does the '51' include the tutorial tracks too?
    This is kind of what I meant by the short duration tracks. The others are fine, but a track that takes under 10 seconds to finish with minimal practice doesn't have much repeated playability.
    Again, not knocking what's available...simply an observation.
    51 tracks isn't too bad if that doesn't include the tutorial ones.

    Also do you plan to release many more tracks for Trials2SE?
    This may sway my decision to invest in a full copy if there's going to be fresh challenges regularly...kind of why I wanted an editor:
    To inject fresh life into a game I may have become bored with sooner than some of the hardcore 200+ hours people you mentioned earlier sabbbi



    Originally Posted by sebbbi
    I can't really talk about our next projects, but I can assure you that I am doing everything I can to make sure we have good high quality editor tools integrated inside our next game.
    I've read your comments and appreciate that being a time/resource limited project; polishing the editor wasn't of the highest priority.
    It's a pity you weren't offered more time and resources.
    But hey-ho, business is business, and time is money.
    So good to hear this has been taken on board and an editor is (hopefully) in the plans for the next version.



    Originally Posted by sebbbi
    For a small team like us, the user created content would allow us to do less content in house, and still have more content for the players. Making this a pure win-win situation. This of course is just my personal opinion.
    Very true, and very honest of you
    Especially post-release track update wise.
    Maybe you could point this out to the guys in charge

    I'm new to these boards so please excuse my ignorance with regard to who does what around here.
    Learning this game was a 3 month project leaves me even more in awe at the amount you guys have got done.
    One other point I'd like to make if I may, is the support here.
    I have to say despite it's limited membership numbers these boards seem to be full of staff, devs and the like taking the time to answer everyone's questions and suggestions.

    This is highly commendable and many larger development houses could learn a lot from you guys.

    Keep up the good work

    Hope I didn't 'wall-of-text crit' too many of you
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  5. #45
    Erb, I agree with a lot of what you said. Particularly about a level editor creating an entirely new community. Very well put. I also have made levels for FPS games. Unreal Tournament, Counterstrike, etc. While the initial game play caused me to purchase the game, it was the fact that I could create my own levels that got me hooked into playing every day. In turn, this "hook" caused me to brag about the game so much to my friends that they purchased the games as well.

    A game like this begs for an editor. But I totally understand the reasons for it not being available in this release. They have devoted their resources to creating a very fun game with loads of tracks. And a few that I still can't beat! Yes, an editor is a sorely missed feature, but one I am willing to eagerly wait for in perhaps Trials 3.

    I don't know how much you have actually played the full version at your friend's house. But I can say in my opinion the cost of the game really understates the value of the game. I get bored with games very quickly. And I don't think this game could ever get boring. And when they do come out with an editor, I will be glad I have the playing experience I have acquired to help me better understand track layout. I know it's not just a simple matter of stick a barrel here, and a ladder there.

    Also, if you get bored playing the tracks because they are so easy, you can make each track as hard as you want them to be. Just hop online and try to take MrT out of his top spot I GUARANTEE it will take months of playtime to do so!

    Originally Posted by Erb
    I have to say despite it's limited membership numbers these boards seem to be full of staff, devs and the like taking the time to answer everyone's questions and suggestions.
    How much more could you ask for in a game? I mean... really?
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  6. #46
    sebastianaalton's Avatar Trials Developer
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    Originally Posted by Erb
    I tried to illustrate that with an editor you'd have made a great offering even better.
    You'd have increased the game's longevity exponentially.
    I completely agree with this statement.
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  7. #47
    Originally Posted by 2FastLX
    Also, if you get bored playing the tracks because they are so easy, you can make each track as hard as you want them to be. Just hop online and try to take MrT out of his top spot I GUARANTEE it will take months of playtime to do so!
    Haha, I never said it was easy, I like variety
    I've seen MrT and others near the top's replays and there's not a chance in hell I'm going to be taking anyone's crown


    Originally Posted by 2FastLX
    How much more could you ask for in a game? I mean... really?
    Oh man, you shouldn't have asked ..an editor! /hide
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  8. #48
    s0ad667's Avatar Senior Member
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    Ah, i almost got over the fact that we're never gonna see the editor. Stop digging out subjects like that!

    It's sad thinking that from the second (third,max ) day there would be dozens of downloable maps for us to lay our hands on... and erase the half (or most of them) because they suck

    Of course the price we paid is just unbelievable for a game with so much content. Especially for the ones that bought it at its very first version, and got the updates later. You could leave the game as it was, no SecondEdition, no nothing. But you didn't. You showed that you are gamers and you know what your fans wanted. And we respect you for that...

    Back to the editor - if you sit down, make it stable, basically polish it, many people here are willing to pay for it. You know they do. I don't know if there is one in a million chance to change your aspect on it, but i had to take it out of me. You shouldn't remind it to me, see what you've done?
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  9. #49
    The game trials 2 SE is on sale now online, not in shops.

    the editor is not going to be relased.
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  10. #50
    I will throw in that I'd pay for the editor as well. Having only actually paid $9.95 for the original version, then the free update has me feeling a bit guilty
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