1. #1

    Evade Value

    I just took another look over the skills and realized that I still have no idea about the value of Evade and the Weapon Skill.
    Now in the manual you can find:
    Every strike has an attack value which is compared to the evade value of the target to determine whether the strike hits, or not.
    But what exactly does that mean?

    Lets say I have 50 in Sword and the Opponent has 50 Evade. Is this a 50% chance to miss?
    Now if I have 10 sword and the opponent has 20 Evade, I guess that is a 10/(10+20) -> 33,33% to hit?
    Or is there a different formular?
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  2. #2
    yes this is some ********! dodging my elf 37 for the entire game and he never missed a hit (miss chance is 0 if someone did not come up) ... but cool evasion.
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  3. #3
    All I understand from what you wrote is that it didn't work out for you.
    There isn't a miss chance value.

    I just checked in the game, the opponents have an attack value of 50-100 and a dodge value between 20 and 50.
    So against an opponent with 100 attack, 37 dodge would mean a 27% chance to dodge if my assumption of the formular is correct.
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  4. #4
    As I didnt't find the formular anyways, I did a few testruns.

    I Created 4 Elves on Warrior Difficulty and Cheated them up to around level 30 so I got enough ponts to spend them on evade and dodge. I enganged a spider (50 attack) and a Militia (75 attack) with different evade values and collected the amount of hits I received out of 100 strikes. I used hunker down which gives 15 Evade, so in order to test 125 evade, I set the skill to 120. 100 strikes is a good value to see tendencies but by no menas accurate.

    Against Attack 50 with Evade of 36: Dodged 10% of Attacks
    Against Attack 50 with Evade of 50: Dodged 17% of Attacks
    Against Attack 50 with Evade of 75: Dodged 36% of Attacks
    Against Attack 50 with Evade of 100: Dodged 64% of Attacks
    Against Attack 50 with Evade of 150: Dodged 79% of Attacks

    Against Attack 75 with Evade of 50: Dodged 5% of Attacks
    Against Attack 75 with Evade of 75: Dodged 14% of Attacks
    Against Attack 75 with Evade of 100: Dodged 46% of Attacks
    Against Attack 75 with Evade of 125: Dodged 51% of Attacks
    Against Attack 75 with Evade of 150: Dodged 50% of Attacks (probably some bad luck)

    Some Facts:
    First you need to be aware that each level up grants 4 Stat points and 2 Skillpoints
    1 Point in Destiny gives you 1 Evade and 0.25 Crit Chance.
    1 Point in Vitality gives you 3 HP (5 as Dwarf)
    1 Point in Dodge gives you 1 Evade, Expert and Master gives you 4 extra, Grand Master lets you attack on the first dodge.

    If the formular is the same for the release version, it is pretty clear that Evade is a all or nothing value - and in most cases it's nothing. You can see that with an evade value which equals the attack value of the opponent you still have almost zero advantage. In the case of a spider, the easiest opponent in the game this are 36 Stat points which you could have used for 108 hitpoints instead. But of course it also increases your hit chance. In the case of a Militia this are about 60 Stat points, worth 15 Levels or 180 hitpoints (300 as Dwarf).
    From that point onwards it starts to get effective (the next 25-50 Evade) until diminishing returns sets in.
    Now elite Enemies in the starting Area already have 90 Attack. From what I have heared from the Data which was mined they wont go over 200 Attack though.
    You will not have any positive Effect of Dodge in the complete first area. And if it gets better after that is speculation.
    But even if it gets better:
    You normally have no problems against small enemies anyways. It's the big ones you need to be strong against. But from what we can see from the test values, Evade will be most useless against bosses.
    In addition: The 5 Points of Evade on the Elves are worth nothing if you don't go all in.
    The Dodge skill is extremely expensive. You only get 1 evade per point. This is even less than you get from the Destiny stat as this also brings crit chance. The Dodge skill ONLY makes sense if you go all in and take the Grand Master Skill. At that point you have 21 points of dodge and can retaliate after the first evade. In order to make this work you now need to put at least 50, more likely around 100 Stat points in the destiny skill. From that moment on it "might" give you an advantage.
    Another conclusion is that the 15 Dodge you get from hunker down is completely useless. Better use the turn to attack, the 15 Dodge wont save you.
    On the other hand: The attack value you have right from the beginning is already extremely high. Most enemies in the beginning are easily outpowered by that skill (they have 20-50 evade). It is not really needed to put more points into that (well you might want to push them anyways for the other bonuses). However armor will decrease your attack value later on, so you need to counterbalance that.

    Personally I'll go the safe way and won't put a single point in the dodge skill, and also probably not in the Destiny Stat (maybe just to increase crit)
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  5. #5
    Nice work!

    I agree, it seems as if dodging in the EAV is just... crap.
    I hope, though, that they have done some adjustments / improvements.
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  6. #6
    very bad..need correct this ability!!!
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  7. #7
    Wow. The pool of data is very small, but from what you gathered, even my own skill adjustment suggestions seem to be a bit underpowered. I had no idea dodge was THAT ineffective.

    My idea was to make each point in dodge to increase evade by 2 and change experts and mastery to something else (+evade against ranged attacks and a partial dodge that either uses part of the evade as armor or allows secondary dodge rolls to partially decrease damage). Also, I felt that Light armor should give +1 dodge with each skill point in order to not make it flatly inferior to heavy armor.
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  8. #8
    If dodge increased evade by 2 and the experts and mastery skill did something else dodge would make sense again I guess.
    But the main problem here is imho that Evade is a all or nothing decision. Most players will probably just have like 50 evade or so on a character as they don't know better. The problem is that it doesn't really make a difference if you have 10 or 50 evade. And the whole idea is of "I am going into cover this turn" is absurd if it increases your dodge chance by less than a percent.
    So the skill "dodge" needs to be adjusted to be in line with the destiny stat which was buffed by having additional level ups since the first release (so that way you have much much more points to spend).
    But to fix the evade skill the formular needs to be changed to something like what I assumed would be the formular.
    100 Evade vs 100 Weapon should result in a fixed amount of Dodge percentage. Lets say it's 30% Dodge probability. And from that value each % of difference should cause an equal amount of dodge chance.

    So that 10 Evade vs 100 Weapon would be 10% of 30% = 3%
    And 110 Evade vs 100 Weapon would be 110% of 30% = 33%

    Or to put it in an easier formular:
    You have a base dodge chance of like 30%
    Each point in evade should increase dodge chance by a value of like 0.3%
    And each point of armor value should decrease enemies dodge chance by a value of like 0.3%
    That would be: ActualDodgeChance = BaseDodgeChance + Evade*DodgeModifier - EnemiesWeaponSkill*DodgeModifier

    Oh, and another problem is that, at least in the EAV, most enemies have a weapon skill of 100 (84 of 122 enemies have 100, 7 are higher, 4 have 90, 5 have 75, 4 have 50). There is no real increase of skill between levels.
    But that means that you won't feel any result in increasing evade value at first and suddenly it breaches a magical number and it starts to work for the rest of the game. That's quite absurd.
    My guess is that these are tempoirary values for the mobs as most of them also have 200 hp and 20 evade. But that means that even with higher levels in the release version Evade will probably stay useless.
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  9. #9
    And thanks to Melnorme1984 over here we now got some values from the release pre-day1-patch client.

    Now of course we don't know if the formular changed at all. But assuming it stayed the same it's still great news.
    Instead of having enemies with a weaponskill of 100 from the beginning of the game till the end we now have a slow increase. In the starting area we can expect having enemies with 20-30 evade. This actually means that each point of evade will actually have an effect - at least if you keep it up.
    It will still not make any sense to only put 10 points into destiny during the first 10 levels and then abandon it. But now you don't need to pump everything into it right away if you want to see an effect. Instead a character on dodge can steadily increase the evade stat and should try to reach a value of 100 or higher when reaching the last levels. Assuming that you can actually reach level 50 in the game, this is basically half your stat points into destiny - which will also grant you a higher crit chance.
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  10. #10
    I have tried out the full version PRE-PATCH with the bladedancer.
    And the evade value, which I only improved slightly when leveling, indeed makes a difference. There are MANY more misses vs the bladedancer than vs the other party members.
    So this seems to be fixed.

    One caveat, though: I played on adventurer for the first time. Maybe the attack values of the monsters are higher in warrior (which will be the mode to go for veterans like us!).
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