1. #71
    jkk89's Avatar First 1700 ELO! Hooah!
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    I don't like Wastelands, too expensive for what it does. Think Pillage is more cost-efficient. Wasteland is better vs Ishuma cause he only play creatures, but Ishuma is already easy matchup.

    Oh, and I beat Leogzz's smurf yesterday Don't think I lose any game vs Ishuma yet, but pretty small sample (maybe played 10-15 games vs Ishuma).
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  2. #72
    Well, I may have overextended my pillage version analysis since once ahead (like with devotion) I have those pillage (and today wasteland) to make sure you do not come back. Even with non pillage version, I guess you did not lose a lot of games where you took board control with devotion and followed up with a prison. But like I said earlier, if I use pillage before the devotion to make it happen first for me, do I have still one to use ? What I mean is I may have been wrong about resuming this mu to the devotion play, since it depends of a lot of different factors.

    About the dead card point, I think there are some things to say. First of all, what are dead cards ? I guess you are referring to those cases where you have no real advantage or behind on the board and rely on your draws to make the difference happen. On this account, I have to say there are not many dead draws. If I play vs some Ishuma, a broken bridge is definitely not a dead draw. If I play a Sandal lock, it is. The 3 pillages and 2 wastelands are dead draws when I do not have enough on the board in comparison to what the opponent has. The cosmic realignement are dead draws in some similar cases. I guess this case where "you are a bit behind, starts losing board control and want to come back" is what you were thinking about with "dead draws" (correct me if I am wrong). First of all, this case is not frequent. Every Cass player knows we have one of the best early game (4 first turns) in the meta. Some could argue that tithe are a big part of this strong start but with 4 river of gems I assure you you have not so much to worry about at this stage of the game. Anyway these games happen and as a strong deck we have to be able do deal with those situation.

    So lets look closer to those dead draws. First, there are 3 slots (RT) dedicated to remove dead draws from the pack. Then, there are amazing synergies beetween those dead draws. I mean, take a look at those 5 cards : broken bridge / cosmic realignement / pillage / wasteland / river of gems. They have all synergies with eachother. It means that accumulating what looks like fail draw would end up to be a good setup. Ofc if you have no cards, lose the board and draw pillage + wasteland, you might experience some trouble. But meh, then the game was lost before.

    The real risk running pillage + wasteland is not drawing enough creatures but mulligan and probability are here to assure you that you start with the creatures you need.

    PS: About wasteland, I think the card is still very good since it is good vs Cass, Sandal fortune (any Otk) and Ishuma. In general, I would say it can shine in any matchup that does not end quick.
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  3. #73
    Regarding dead draws, what I meant was this. In Cass fortune once you gain board advantage you typically use prison to keep it and gain an overwhelming advantage that cannot be recovered from. Usually, in the vast majority of games a single prison from this position is sufficient to win. Pillage does not aid you in winning in this situation. Sure it makes you win faster but you would have won anyways even without Pillage. Where these Cass decks struggle is if/when they fall behind on the board, if you are behind and you draw pillage/wasteland they do nothing to help you re-gain the board advantage so they are dead draws. Cass has no board wipe (such as FF with fire magic) or other means of regaining board control.
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  4. #74
    Firstly gratz to Dipl0 - awesome job! I'm looking forward to checking out the videos.

    Regarding your deck - really nice choice to cut Tithes! It occurred to me also - when the main purpose of a card becomes "Revised Tactics Target" that's an indication it needs to go. Even drawing multiple in the first couple of turns isn't so strong because they don't actually do anything besides block up the melee line.

    Gratz also to Enlightened Owl. (And Uraxor and Evil_Nuff's comments are completely unnecessary).

    For the record, I've made T1 with Imperial Crossbowman multiple times. They are a perfectly viable choice in a pure rush Haven deck that runs the full compliment of Mercenaries/Trainings. Forgotten Cave on the other hand is an "interesting" choice :P

    I retired this Jackpot in 17th place.
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  5. #75
    Originally Posted by WesleyCau Go to original post
    ...
    Gratz also to Enlightened Owl. (And Uraxor and Evil_Nuff's comments are completely unnecessary).
    ...
    I disagree completely. Our comments are not only necessary but others should be saying the same thing. We should NOT encourage people to make poor deck decisions and praise them when they just succeed through blind dumb luck. Instead we should work towards a better understanding of the game and improving everyone's ability to build and play decks. Praising a terrible deck choice is counter productive and frankly is just sabotaging other players. Myself and others get tagged for being aggressive in our comments but the reality is we are the ones being *nice* with our comments because we are actually helping.
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  6. #76
    Originally Posted by Evil_Nuff Go to original post
    Regarding dead draws, what I meant was this. In Cass fortune once you gain board advantage you typically use prison to keep it and gain an overwhelming advantage that cannot be recovered from. Usually, in the vast majority of games a single prison from this position is sufficient to win. Pillage does not aid you in winning in this situation. Sure it makes you win faster but you would have won anyways even without Pillage. Where these Cass decks struggle is if/when they fall behind on the board, if you are behind and you draw pillage/wasteland they do nothing to help you re-gain the board advantage so they are dead draws. Cass has no board wipe (such as FF with fire magic) or other means of regaining board control.
    Pillage is not here to win easier after prison, It is here so we can temporize the opponent plays before the prison. A wrong understanding of pillage is thinking you have to play this before the turn 7 of your opponent because it wont be effective before (3 for 3) but this is totally wrong. I have wrote some words about the card earlier in this thread if you want more theory about what makes pillage a strong card. There are games I play it before the turn 4 of my opponent if I see I can keep up the lock/overwhelming after. I did even play a pillage before the turn 3 of my opponent... This happens when you have very specific setup but this happens (and gives free win).

    You do not need to have a better board than your opponent to play pillage or even wasteland. You need to have a plan for next turn and those cards make you sure nothing will go wrong (check the Ishuma game of my last jackpot, I think they are a good illustration about being someway behind and coming ahead with a plan). Well I can not check them right now but as I remember it was those kind of game.

    This said, it is obviously a weakness of those cards. They can be dead draws. My point is just to say, dont focus on what a card does not, you may forget what it does.
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  7. #77
    EnlightenedOwl's Avatar Member
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    Calling my success "blind dumb luck" is really insulting and inaccurate. Even if you dislike my deck choices do I at least get a little bit of credit for playing well or having some kind of skill that may have contributed to my top 10 finish? Me playing a couple of cards that you don't like doesn't invalidate my ability as a player and my conceptual understanding of the game. There is more than one way to play and more than one way to approach deckbuilding. And no, nothing that you're saying is "helping"- you're simply using that as an excuse to justify the way you're posting which in my opinion is aggressive, unpleasant, non-productive and borderline rude. I can definitely handle criticism and I'm more than open to hearing opinions wildly different than my own but there are better ways to express those opinions than the way you guys are going about it.

    For example, in hindsight, I agree Forgotten Cave is a little bit sketchy. It was actually pretty decent for what I wanted it for and I still don't think it's the worst thing ever but not being the worst is very different from being optimal. The card is fine, but in order to deserve a spot in the deck it needs to be better than fine. I think perhaps I was a bit biased at the time because I'd played with Cosmic Realignment multiple times previously and wasn't pleased with it but it seems to be the consensus among almost everyone that they're good and deserve a spot. If I run Cass again in the future I'll give them another shot.
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  8. #78
    I did not mean to imply that pillage was only for use after prison. Rather that it serves a similar purpose to that of prison, which is once you have a board advantage helping you maintain/extend this advantage. Scrolling back and reading your comments on pillage the cons you listed are exactly what I identified as the problems with the card so we certainly agree on the drawbacks. I think where we disagree is whether the pros outweigh the cons with pillage. IMO they do not. I do not view the pros of pillage, even the ones you describe in nice detail, as any actual advantage unless you already are ahead in the game. You yourself actually say this:
    "...Problem comes when you are behind. Ishuma, Sandal and Crag Hack have ways to be ahead (crag hack more than sandal, and sandal more than ishuma). If you play from behind against those decks, you have to win the card advantage war..."
    That in a nutshell describes exactly why I do not like pillage. That is the current post-ammar meta and that is the meta that pillage does not help you with. Which leads me to the logical conclusion that pillage is crap.

    Now I can spend 5 or 10 minutes and explain all the logic behind why pillage is crap but honestly it should be self-evident to other players. This leads to me being probably the Ishuma of aggressive forum posters (with uraxor or pthreek being the crag hack). I just see this as common sense and do not like spending time explaining simple concepts.
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  9. #79
    Originally Posted by Evil_Nuff Go to original post
    I disagree completely. Our comments are not only necessary but others should be saying the same thing. We should NOT encourage people to make poor deck decisions and praise them when they just succeed through blind dumb luck. Instead we should work towards a better understanding of the game and improving everyone's ability to build and play decks. Praising a terrible deck choice is counter productive and frankly is just sabotaging other players. Myself and others get tagged for being aggressive in our comments but the reality is we are the ones being *nice* with our comments because we are actually helping.
    Commenting that you disagree with someone's deck choice is okay. Offering a constructive argument to support your case is better. Randomly hurling insults is not okay.

    Coming 5th in the Jackpot isn't a trivial achievement. When someone does that and then chooses to share their deck I prefer to treat them with respect. I also know that Crossbowman actually play really well in a rush based Haven deck with 8 pump events (having actually tested them).

    What makes you the authority on this issue? I don't even see any Haven decks in your proudly displayed (but short) list of "Decks I have hit T1 Jackpot with since Forgotten Wars"?
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  10. #80
    Originally Posted by WesleyCau Go to original post
    Commenting that you disagree with someone's deck choice is okay. Offering a constructive argument to support your case is better. Randomly hurling insults is not okay.

    Coming 5th in the Jackpot isn't a trivial achievement. When someone does that and then chooses to share their deck I prefer to treat them with respect. I also know that Crossbowman actually play really well in a rush based Haven deck with 8 pump events (having actually tested them).

    What makes you the authority on this issue? I don't even see any Haven decks in your proudly displayed (but short) list of "Decks I have hit T1 Jackpot with since Forgotten Wars"?
    I hurled no insults (incidentally when I do hurl insults they are never random ). Actually yes coming in 5th is trivial, you can come in 5th through just blind dumb luck. And I treat no deck with respect that has crap cards in it. Since you mention my sig, you will notice that I made T1 with Ammar. That was before it became popular and my Ammar deck was made as a joke and honestly it was garbage and full of crap cards. Should I get respect because I made T1 with a crap deck? Hell no!

    Authority on what issue exactly? Where exactly have I claimed to be an authority on anything in this thread? As for T1 decks, that list does not include the Sandal and Alia and Cass decks that I stopped at T2 with. And since you seem to actually care about such things, how many decks have you hit T1 with?
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