1. #1
    Seriously, it seem's that nobody but the devoted fans of the P-47(Myself included obviously)take it seriously. Even Oleg has stated that they were basically a sub-standard a/c. This apalls me, to believe that one of the most used and valuable a/c in the USAAF could be considered not valuable to this game. While I understand it is not the most glamorous of aircraft, nor the best turner and so on, BUT she has many, many very good attributes. Last time I checked the true value of a fighter a/c was it's ability to bring it's pilot home after a successful encounter or even after a little abuse. The Jug is very well known for this, and was used with much success in all theatres of operation as the true workhorse of the fighter corps of the USAAF. But yet she is forgotten, always overshadowed by the very deservingly loved P-51, but is there not enough light for the P-47 to shine as well? I cannot understand why there seem's to be so much animosity from OM's standpoint on the Jug as well as some of the community. Tell me what makes the Jug the crappy plane you all seem to think it is. Can we not have a natural line of variants like the Yaks, 109's, 190's, La's and so on? There were many, many variants of the P-47 each adding more to the already good list of excllent qualities of the Jug. Yet we cannot have them, because of what reason? I am dying to know, this is not a flame war, but I want to know if there are any good reasons why we dedicated P-47 jocks are always at the bottom of the list, we have kept fairly quiet and yet we still have an undermodelled a/c(D-27), we just happily fly it. But the second we ask nicely for a/c that actually flew combat and with excellent records(see my P-47M and N thread), we get slapped in the face. Many a/c are in this game because a dedicated fan took the tiem to create them, well here I am been fighting this for so long with a modeller to make the a/c and yet I can't have mine too? Why? And before you even feel like saying because it is too late, I have been trying to get this done for almost a year now, and the first two modellers either got too busy or were discouraged by the apalling bias on some peoples parts. Yet I carried on and here I am with a third modeller and even a fourth to try again and still they fight us. Why? I want a serious answer, I feel those of us who are dedicated to the P-47 deserve an answer, we have been playing by the rules, and yet we silently watch as all of these other a/c get added, hoping that the kind wizard will grant us our wishes as he has done for everyone else. But alas, he does not, and I am curious as to why. So now you can flame away, or what I really am hoping for a sincere discussion on why this is occuring.

    ~S!
    Eagle
    Commanding Officer 361st vFG
    www.361stvfg.com
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  2. #2
    Seriously, it seem's that nobody but the devoted fans of the P-47(Myself included obviously)take it seriously. Even Oleg has stated that they were basically a sub-standard a/c. This apalls me, to believe that one of the most used and valuable a/c in the USAAF could be considered not valuable to this game. While I understand it is not the most glamorous of aircraft, nor the best turner and so on, BUT she has many, many very good attributes. Last time I checked the true value of a fighter a/c was it's ability to bring it's pilot home after a successful encounter or even after a little abuse. The Jug is very well known for this, and was used with much success in all theatres of operation as the true workhorse of the fighter corps of the USAAF. But yet she is forgotten, always overshadowed by the very deservingly loved P-51, but is there not enough light for the P-47 to shine as well? I cannot understand why there seem's to be so much animosity from OM's standpoint on the Jug as well as some of the community. Tell me what makes the Jug the crappy plane you all seem to think it is. Can we not have a natural line of variants like the Yaks, 109's, 190's, La's and so on? There were many, many variants of the P-47 each adding more to the already good list of excllent qualities of the Jug. Yet we cannot have them, because of what reason? I am dying to know, this is not a flame war, but I want to know if there are any good reasons why we dedicated P-47 jocks are always at the bottom of the list, we have kept fairly quiet and yet we still have an undermodelled a/c(D-27), we just happily fly it. But the second we ask nicely for a/c that actually flew combat and with excellent records(see my P-47M and N thread), we get slapped in the face. Many a/c are in this game because a dedicated fan took the tiem to create them, well here I am been fighting this for so long with a modeller to make the a/c and yet I can't have mine too? Why? And before you even feel like saying because it is too late, I have been trying to get this done for almost a year now, and the first two modellers either got too busy or were discouraged by the apalling bias on some peoples parts. Yet I carried on and here I am with a third modeller and even a fourth to try again and still they fight us. Why? I want a serious answer, I feel those of us who are dedicated to the P-47 deserve an answer, we have been playing by the rules, and yet we silently watch as all of these other a/c get added, hoping that the kind wizard will grant us our wishes as he has done for everyone else. But alas, he does not, and I am curious as to why. So now you can flame away, or what I really am hoping for a sincere discussion on why this is occuring.

    ~S!
    Eagle
    Commanding Officer 361st vFG
    www.361stvfg.com
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  3. #3
    p1ngu666's Avatar Senior Member
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    Aug 2003
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    11,199
    i guess its cos its hard to fly well. my mate dave said its like a fat slug, and theres some justification in that
    also we dont have the true jug in fb
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  4. #4
    Actually I have nothing against the P-47. I`m just a natural turner so Hurris, Las, I16s suit me better. I was only put off by the almost childish whines about `roll rate` that went on forever (and still does by some).

    Still when needs must (online with Squaddies) I`ve flown it and usually get shot down everytime cos I don`t really know how tp fly it.

    You either love it or hate it. I guess.

    Maybe I should do a P-47 pic for you guys who feel hard done by...

    (Y`know the British aren`t really getting their fair share with the planes we have...)

    SeaFireLIV...

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  5. #5
    TX-Zen's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    616
    I think everyone has built in bias and this is not a negative thing, it's a fact of human nature. The P47 may not fit in the designers world view for many reasons and probably none of them are because they hate the plan, probably closer to say they just never heard of it doing anything great during it's time.

    Some examples I can give are the original treatment of the FW190 in IL2...simply pathetic if I may be blunt. It has taken 2 years, 8 odd patches and a mutation into a whole new game to get it right and all because the designers were not impressed by it's historical performance (from the perspective of the VVS themselves at the time). Oleg had stated that a long time ago in a thread far away.

    The P47 may not have as much time as the FW to be corrected unfortunately and if that is the case, I will be as sad for the P47 drivers as they are, I know what it's like to fly a 'porked' plane.


    Another example of natural and (I think) perfectly innocent bias is the P39. Based on everything I've read through the course of my life, the plane was a dog, something too finicky for general use and fit only to be given away to another country. The FM in the game disgrees with my long standing view and contradicts my impressions of it, but the designers have good evidence to say it was that good. Many of the P39 proponents in the game have made excellent comments to debunk the 'dog' stigma the plane carries...and I agree with most of their logic. In my bones however, the plane is a dog and will always be a dog and I doubt anything will ever change that impression. That being said, I don't mind a bit how the plane flies in FB and give the benefit of the doubt to the designers...maybe they have a clearer picture of the P39 than I do because as I said, I am biased against it.

    The P38 is another example...my history teaches me that it dominated against the Japanese and was only marginally effective against the Luftwaffe, at least in the air to air role. But the plane could very well have dominated in air to air against the Germans as well, but after I'd read a enough about the plane...I quit reading EVERYTHING about the plane and so perhaps my long standing perception is incorrect. Same of the P39 now that I think about it.

    So what I'm saying is that like the FW190, perhaps they simply don't feel the plane was all that great. Perhaps according to all of the history they've read it wasn't...that doesn't make them anti P47, it means their human and can't be on top of everything all the time. I don't say any of this to rebutt you Eagle, just offer it as examples of some of the possible reasons why.


    I certainly don't pretend to speak for the design team, but am more of suggesting possible reasons...guestimation if you will.

    S~

    -Zen-
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  6. #6
    I totally agree with you Seafire, the RAF has been getting the shortend even worse if that is even possible. I hope that with the coming RAF a/c you all will be justified in your very unneccassary wait. I can't wait to fly the Spit and Beau myslef. And I can also agree that it is either a love/hate thing and it is harder to fly effectively in FB. But there has to be mor ethan that IMO.

    ~S!
    Eagle
    Commanding Officer 361st vFG
    www.361stvfg.com
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  7. #7
    Very good post Zen, and I can see your reasoning and to be honest is what I feel in many ways. I remember the 190 of IL2 days (cringes) and hope that the P-47 get's a chance to be fixed as the 190 has. I think all of the planes deserve that, not just our P-47. I also agree that I am a little biased as it has always been my favorite plane which lead me to read and research it and know more about it. When I first came into IL2 I had known very little of the VVS a/c and thought of them as "junk" my views have changed as I have read and learned much here and from books on the subject. I still love the P-47 that we have it is light years ahead of anything else he have had in the past truly, but because of my love for the plane and I am sure you understand I have a greater desire to see it "right" and proceed to the greater models as many people do with their favorite a/c. But thank you, as I had never really took into account of what you said, just that they must surely know the P-47 was a great plane, and I may very well have been wrong in my own and their assumtion.

    ~S!
    Eagle
    Commanding Officer 361st vFG
    www.361stvfg.com
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  8. #8
    I'm a little curious guys, what exactly do you think needs fixing on the 47?

    I know the P-47 belongs on my crappy plane list, I really cannot fly it that well at all. The only advantage I can find is the fairly good firepower and the dive speed. If I get a bogie on my tail I just kiss my arse goodbye.
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  9. #9
    It's more about natural progression of the line, most of the bugs have been worked out of the P-47. The D-27 still is slow on roll-rate, it's departure too great and stability would be enhanced if they gave the option of the fin fillet that was field modded or of course a D-30 and on model which would take very little work. For the most part the P-47 has been fixed and is very nice to fly, my gripe is the fact that 1C will not accept us to add the better models that served. It's like saying sorry there can be no FW 190A-9's or Doras or the 109 will stop at G-2. But hey there was a story once of a Yak with jet engines let's model it just for fun.

    ~S!
    Eagle
    Commanding Officer 361st vFG
    www.361stvfg.com
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  10. #10
    I wouldn't put the best ground attack a/c in the sim on the "crap" list.


    www.7Jg77.com

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