Outmanoeuvre is WAY too powerful | Forums

[macfloam]

So far I really like this game, but I'm starting to worry that like most TCGs, Ubisoft may have gotten lazy when in comes to card balancing. Without balance, these games just break down into a contest of who is the best at exploiting poor design, and the game quickly devolves into one with thousands of cards available for use, but only a select few ever seen in regular rotation. TCGs shouldn't be about exploiting poorly balanced cards, but instead about building decks with cards designed to work well together, and then employing good strategy during gameplay.

Card balancing is really quite simple, and although a detailed spreadsheet or database is ideal for its implementation, it's even easier to test simply by comparing cards. This is why I say that Outmanoeuvre is way too powerful (or drastically under-priced if you'd rather look at it that way).

Outmanoeuvre provides the exact same effect as the uncommon spell Storm Wind, which costs 2, with a requirement of 3 Magic. Storm Wind therefore sets the standard cost for moving an opposing unit to another valid battleground position, and this is such a powerful effect that it's probably well priced. Coral Priestess, a common creature card from the same set is a 2/1/3 Magic Shooter creature with 3 cost and the Outmanouvre ability. So unless a 2/1/3 magic shooter with no special abilities costs 1, Coral Priestess is VERY underpriced (or overpowered).

It's even worse when you realize that combining two effects into a single card should cost more than the sum of the 2 effects. Afterall, you're getting 2 effects, but only using up one card. For example, if Fire Bolt (deal 2 damage to target creature) costs 1, then a spell that deals 2 damage to two creatures should cost 3.

What's worse is that Storm Wind actually has a true cost of more than just 2. It's requirement is 3 Magic (a higher than normal requirement for a spell with a cost of 2).

To balance Coral Priestess, the card should either cost 3 and have 1/0/2 stats (same as the 1-cost Imperial Crossbowman), or should cost 4 (since she's got stats equal to most 2-cost shooter creatures).

[RomanticMoment]

Similarly is true for Haven and Necropolis with their infect and regeneration creatures (both 2-costing spell effects). So I don't think that argument by itself is valid. However, outmaneuver is a lot more powerful than either of those spells since it easily can straight up net a card, so there is more to be said about that.

Overall, I think the power level of the effect should be judged from the power level of the decks that play it, and sanctuary decks seem in no way oppressive or dominating.

[IBasharAnge]

Some things to take into consideration:
- Coral Priestess is ONE card. You could just say "Coral Priestess is WAY too powerful". Good thing is that there're only 4 in any Sanctuary deck.
- No Sanctuary deck is competitive right now. You could even say they're bad/underpowered/whatever.
- Storm Wind is never played. This might indicate that it's overpriced. Maybe that's a spell that should cost 1.5 ressources ... If you look closely, a 2/1/2 costs 1 so a 2/1/3 might cost 1.5. 1.5 + 1.5 = 3, voila.

Coral Priestess should probably cost something like 3.5. But it needed to be rounded, either up or down. Based on the very low power level of Sanctuary, I think they took the right decision.

[IBasharAnge]

To balance Coral Priestess, the card should either cost 3 and have 1/0/2 stats (same as the 1-cost Imperial Crossbowman), or should cost 4 (since she's got stats equal to most 2-cost shooter creatures).

Imperial Crossbowman is not a "card". It could be 0/0/0 for 6 and have the same impact on the game. Look at Stronghold for comparison with a 2/0/1 for 1.

[MeiHabara]

Nobody ever plays Storm Wind, because it is way too overprized for its effect.

I consider the outmaneuvre creatures to be fine. It's what defines Sanctuary. You could lament about life steal in necro decks, the absurd amount of stats in inferno, enrage in stronghold, imperial guards or tide collectors in heaven, and many more, but they are what defines these colors.

Sanctuary really lack in the raw power department of their creatures. Cards with more than 2 attack don't appear until 4+ might. They make up with board control through outmaneuvre, frozen touch and hypnosis though, and that's fine.

[Anton_Streltsov]

Nobody ever plays Storm Wind, because it is way too overprized for its effect.

I consider the outmaneuvre creatures to be fine. It's what defines Sanctuary. You could lament about life steal in necro decks, the absurd amount of stats in inferno, enrage in stronghold, imperial guards or tide collectors in heaven, and many more, but they are what defines these colors.

Sanctuary really lack in the raw power department of their creatures. Cards with more than 2 attack don't appear until 4+ might. They make up with board control through outmaneuvre, frozen touch and hypnosis though, and that's fine.

THIS. Sanctuary is pretty much powerless against low-cost/high-hp decks, unless a perfect starting hand appears or the opponent has a bad starting hand. Note, that it's literally impossible to rush with sanctuary - they only have ONE 1 resource creature, therefore it's necessary to somehow allow sanctuary to regain board control, and without moving enemy creatures under your line of fire - it's impossible. Why? Because not only does sanctuary have low attack - they also have very low HP before mid-late game (only Kappas are early game creatures able to survive being put in front of an enemy creature and dispose of it, later come the rarely played Kirin and Wanizame - 5HP, which also isn't much stopping power), and the only real high HP creatures are Sacred Kirin (never saw it in play), Naga Warrior (very nice, but 6 might requirement makes it hard to play if you aren't going might-only) and Yuki-Onna (the blocker with most potential IMO). Note, that MOST 5-cost creatures stick with the low-HP trend - Kenshi - 4 HP, pearl priestess - 5 HP, Naga Tidemaster - 6HP - so they all can be disposed with an AOE spell + attack (which is very likely to happen, since Honor works best in a cross formation).
So yeah, let's totally nerf Outmanoeuvre, because you know - diversity is boring, let's just give Haven and Necro a fighting chance!

[macfloam]

Imperial Crossbowman is not a "card". It could be 0/0/0 for 6 and have the same impact on the game. Look at Stronghold for comparison with a 2/0/1 for 1.

That's exactly the point...lack of balance. Why isn't Imperial Crossbowman a viable card? The reason is lack of balance. Either its too weak, or the other cards are too strong.

If you reject the argument that Coral Priestess is too powerful for the valid reasons mentioned in this thread, then I think the logical conclusion is that the other cards (such as Storm Wind and Imperial Crossbowman) are underpowered. My point is more about imbalance in the cards, and less about Coral Priestess. She's just the example I'm using to point out my concerns that this game will end up like so many other TCGs with their hoards of useless cards.

The fact is that Coral Priestess >> Imperial Crossbowman + Storm Wind. So either the left side of that equation is too powerful, or the right side is too weak.

Also, 2/1/2 costs 1 for a melee creature, not a shooter.

As for the argument about rounding, that's not a valid argument in TCG design in my opinion. If a card balances out to a cost of 3.5 either more stats should be added to balance it to a cost of 4, or some should be reduced to balance it to a cost of 3. With 3 stats, numerous abilities, and additional cost requirements, it's pretty easy to add/remove to get a card to balance to an integer cost. If you round up, you're making an underpowered card. If you round down, you're making an overpowered one.

[ferere100]

Well dude it is a card game and all card games have good and playable cards and bad cards.Let's take for example magic the gathering which is is the biggest tcg around.There is a creature for 6 mana that is 6/6 and thats it,common,no abilities.Then there is that creature that is 6 mana cost and is 6/6 with deathtouch and lifelink and when it is destroyed it splits into 2 3/3 which one of the two has lifelink and the other has deathtouch..See what im doing here?Not all cards are made for competitive play and not all cards have the same power level within each other.It would be boring if all races had a 2-0-4 archer for 2 power 2 mana then a melee 4-3-4 for 3/3 etc. don't u think?

Back to our point..i personally HATE outmanoeuvre..All my matches in tournaments and high elo versus Sanctuary are like this..Me turn 1 nothing,Vilain turn 2 spring spirit,me turn 3 DA,vilain turn 4 coral priestess into spirit and then he outtempoes me with Nyorai Sairensa and pearls/tidemasters supported by weeeks of wild spirits..I swear 90% of my matches vs sanctuary are like this.But then again my biggest creature in my deck is 3 power and i play haven atm..I guess with nergal and archliches/lamasus banshees and stuff i would not have that much problem

If something like drafts tournaments would be implemented into game more cards will see play since the power level of decks will be low-average!

[psychobabble.]

Card balancing is really quite simple, and although a detailed spreadsheet or database is ideal for its implementation, it's even easier to test simply by comparing cards. This is why I say that Outmanoeuvre is way too powerful (or drastically under-priced if you'd rather look at it that way).

This is completely wrong. Card balance in a tcg is DYNAMIC, it can only be evaluated in the context of the overall card pool and performance of various decks. And right now, sanctuary is barely if at all competitive which pretty much i invalidates your arguments.

[Frozen-Drake]

Well dude it is a card game and all card games have good and playable cards and bad cards.Let's take for example magic the gathering which is is the biggest tcg around.There is a creature for 6 mana that is 6/6 and thats it,common,no abilities.Then there is that creature that is 6 mana cost and is 6/6 with deathtouch and lifelink and when it is destroyed it splits into 2 3/3 which one of the two has lifelink and the other has deathtouch..See what im doing here?Not all cards are made for competitive play and not all cards have the same power level within each other.It would be boring if all races had a 2-0-4 archer for 2 power 2 mana then a melee 4-3-4 for 3/3 etc. don't u think?

Back to our point..i personally HATE outmanoeuvre..All my matches in tournaments and high elo versus Sanctuary are like this..Me turn 1 nothing,Vilain turn 2 spring spirit,me turn 3 DA,vilain turn 4 coral priestess into spirit and then he outtempoes me with Nyorai Sairensa and pearls/tidemasters supported by weeeks of wild spirits..I swear 90% of my matches vs sanctuary are like this.But then again my biggest creature in my deck is 3 power and i play haven atm..I guess with nergal and archliches/lamasus banshees and stuff i would not have that much problem

If something like drafts tournaments would be implemented into game more cards will see play since the power level of decks will be low-average!

how can you loose vs sanctuary using ophaven? maybe you forgot to put into your deck the praetorians, squires and the wolf guys?
srsly the only deck that sanctuary can win (if sanctuary have good build and lucky draws) is stronghold