The True Story of Christmas | Forums

[WernherVonTrapp]

Can't remember the language, but pagan stems from the word we refer to as field, as in mission field. It wasn't really a bad word as it seems to reflect. I may have caught the last 30 minutes of it today on the HC if it were the same show. Most of the traditions were harmless, it was more later Christmas came more commercial as Santa became the theme of the season, but it does and has provided millions of jobs over the years, so not totally a bad thing.

You're right, the word "pagan" in and of itself is not a bad word, though you have taken it out of the context in which it was used. Nevertheless, even in context, it's not a bad word. It's either a noun or adjective. I used it as an adjective to qualify the noun "rituals".

Adjective: pagan
1. Not acknowledging the God of Christianity and Judaism and Islam

Since I'm Christian, which you already know, that narrows it down even further.

It's not a totally bad thing to have secular rituals absorbed by Christian faiths.

No ritual is a bad thing if it is done for the glory of our Father in Heaven, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[Wolferz]

No ritual is a bad thing if it is done for the glory of our Father in Heaven, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

That may be true, sir but, I have to draw the line at creating false idols in the form of Father Christmas.
Our God is a jealous God according to the rules he set forth in the days of Moses.
But, since this world was created as a free will zone, I reserve judgment to the only one qualified to be judge. He gave us the gift of a king to reconcile man's relationship with him. The point being, that everything men touch becomes tainted with the sins of men. At any rate, men may celebrate the ultimate gift as they choose and I will not stand against them, nor rebuke them if I deem their actions as selfish folly.
LIVE LAUGH LOVE are words to live by along with forgiveness.
A friend of mine kept the following euphemism plastered on the dash of his vehicle....

TO SING TO LAUGH TO DANCE OR DO ANYTHING EXCEPTING THE GLORY OF GOD IS A COMPLETE AND UTTER WASTE OF TIME
Happy Boxing Day

[WernherVonTrapp]

...
...Happy Boxing Day

Indeed, my good man. One thing though, I gave up boxing a long time ago.

[MWolfe1963]

When I was a strong fundy Ind. Baptist, outside of our church most were considered pagans or heathens.....Course, I grew up being called a heathen often by my grandma...haha.

I actually did mission work in my late 20's in Africa and Borneo in college. The camp I worked at was multi-religious. Everyday a few 1000 people, mostly starving, would gather outside the gates for food and trying to get their children in a camp that was already overflowing. Most the tribes had converted and were learning a new faith, but obvious didn't understand all. There was an amazing loving Buddist Monk that often came to the fence, women would run to the fence holding up their babies screaming "Jesus". I'm sure many thought he was Jesus. He would reach over and take a few babies repeating "Jesus" back to the mothers...He was one of the best pagans I'd ever known.... At the end of the day, guards would push the crowds away so clean up could be done, body waste, trash... and the dead. Every night all was thrown in the fire pit for burning, including the dead. I can still smell it today.....

[WernherVonTrapp]

He would reach over and take a few babies repeating "Jesus" back to the mothers...He was one of the best pagans I'd ever known.... .

In what way? Just out of puzzled curiosity, I mean. Speaking from the point of view that there is nothing more important in this world than a man's soul, he touched some babies and repeated something he heard them say.

I mean, do you think someone can work their way, or act nice enough, to get into heaven? I'm not sure I understand you, despite having heard many ministers who have done extensive work, spreading the Gospel over the years in other countries.

[MWolfe1963]

Our camp was large and guarded with missions from several religions. It was more a work of humanity than a seek and convert, but of course that was done. Many missions worked in the field outside of camp. Sometimes it caused confusion among tribes as chiefs decided who or what was right, but for the most part the tribes converted to Christianity, most field missions here were Catholic.

Buddist for the most part simply believe Christ was a good man, but they were part of this international mission work. The one monk simply repeated "Jesus" back to comfort the women that gave up their babies over the fence. Most the tribes spoke no English, but were taught by missions the gospel. You had to be very careful and follow certain rules by local government, because often missions went too far teaching western values that were difficult in their culture. Most tribes were polygamous, ran around naked, etc....had their own culture and laws for survival. It was common to go to a tent service full of naked people, rather strange for Americans....

Obvious, the biblical gospel teaches people are saved through faith, not of works, being nice, etc.....Exactly who and how Christ saves isn't always an easy subject even among Christians. Face it, if you or I were born in a culture of Islam, Buddhism, etc....that's most likely what we would follow. The other complex issue, millions through history simply never heard the gospel and millions of children died before they could understand it to accept it. We create doctrines trying to solve these issues, but most have no biblical basis. The early church was much different, many church fathers taught universal salvation for all through Christ, some taught salvation through rituals, such as baptism, etc... It was more around 400AD that eternal torment became a fixed doctrine, anyone not proclaiming Christ on earth, died and would eventually go to hell.

[WernherVonTrapp]

Our camp was large and guarded with missions from several religions. It was more a work of humanity than a seek and convert, but of course that was done. Many missions worked in the field outside of camp. Sometimes it caused confusion among tribes as chiefs decided who or what was right, but for the most part the tribes converted to Christianity, most field missions here were Catholic...

Ahhh, I understand now. I didn't realize you were referring to a multi-religious, humanitarian effort.

On a side note, I think I'm one of a scant few who converted from Catholicism to Protestantism, and then was accepted back into the Catholic Church. At least, at the time, the Monsignor who was handling my specific case told me that it was rare.

[MWolfe1963]

Ahhh, I understand now. I didn't realize you were referring to a multi-religious, humanitarian effort.

On a side note, I think I'm one of a scant few who converted from Catholicism to Protestantism, and then was accepted back into the Catholic Church. At least, at the time, the Monsignor who was handling my specific case told me that it was rare.

Can't make up your mind, huh......I can't quite find a place that fits my beliefs, but I still go where most of my family goes.......... when I go.....I do debate a lot on a few Christian sites, but alas my brain doesn't work great anymore. You want some heated fights, Christian debating is where it's at..Mainly like debating biblical languages....yea, you laugh, getting where I can't even spell simple words anymore...

[Wolferz]

Doctrine becomes a sticky wicket in most cases from my experience.

[WernherVonTrapp]

I avoid debating the Gospel, or bickering over specific issues. We're even instructed not to do so in the Bible by the apostle Paul. I've worshipped in the Catholic church and many other denominations; Pentecostal, Baptists, Church of the Nazarene, Christian Reformed, etc.. To me, we're all brothers and sisters in Christ, despite the minor differences over specific doctrine. I've been a born again Christian longer than I can remember, almost from childhood. The important thing is the foundation on which we build our faiths, and that foundation is Christ Jesus.

I've experienced and seen many different faiths. I've seen people argue and bicker over trivial points and to no good end, other than to agree to disagree, which accomplishes nothing except having both person (or groups) starting at square-one all over again. Christ is the foundation, the Capstone, the only one that matters. Peter and Paul had an argument over doctrine and all that did was send them on their seperate ways. Man has a way of always throwing a monkey wrench into the works. Just as disciples had their specific apostles/role models that they followed, which Paul tried to redirect toward Christ in his letters, we still have the same doctrinal obstacles confronting Christ's church today.
I suppose we always will, but we still make up the various parts (arms, legs, torso, head) of the body of Christ's church. We are all still children of our Father in heaven.

I do debate a lot on a few Christian sites, but alas my brain doesn't work great anymore. ...

Don't feel bad. If you knew me when my brain was as sharp as a razor, you'd be amazed at how much I cannot seem to remember. When I was much more intelligent and sharper witted, and that was a long time ago, I had a saying that none of my colleagues would ever deny. I used to tell them that I have forgotten more than most people remember, and it was true.

I pulled over a motorist for running a red light (many, many, years ago) and only gave her a warning without issuing a citation. Just over a year later, I pulled her over again for committing the same violation at the same intersection. Just to test her, I asked her if she'd ever been pulled over for a motor vehicle violation in my particular town. Of course, she advised me that she'd never, ever, been stopped for any motor vehicle violation in her entire life.
After reminding her about her violation the year before, she looked at me sheepishly and asked; "Oh, that was you?" I said, "Yup." Then she looked at me astonished and asked, "You remember that?!" I advised her that not only did I remember it, I also told her what she was wearing that day and that we were a mere few feet from the exact spot where I pulled her over the year before.

She couldn't complain about the citation she received this time, but it just goes to show: My mind is growing old too.

Post Script: You want to hear some good pastors MWolfe? Maybe get some answers that you haven't heard before? Seek out and listen to these guys listed below. They bring the message like I've never heard it before:

Bob Botsford
Testify
P.O. Box 9070
Rancho Santa Fe, CA 92067
(858) 756-5599
http://www.horizon.org
pastorbob@horizon.org

Chuck Smith
The Word for Today
P.O. Box 8000
Costa Mesa, CA 92628
(800) 272-9673
http://www.thewordfortoday.org
info@twft.com

Jack Abeelen
Growing Thru Grace
P.O. Box 1954
Whittier, CA 90609
(866) 884-7223
http://www.growingthrugrace.com
gtg@growingthrugrace.com

Jon Courson
Searchlight
PO Box 360
Jacksonville, OR 97530
(888)-544-4858
http://www.joncourson.com
bobthornley@joncourson.com

Jeff Johnson
Sound Doctrine
12808 Woodruff Ave.
Downey, CA 90242
(800) 353-7553
http://www.sounddoctrineradio.org
sounddoctrine@calvarydowney.org