1. #1

    A F4F Wildcat vs Luftwaffe.

    When it comes down to machine vs machine in the air war battles of WWII here is a story about the Fleet Air Arm Squadron 882 Wildcat fighters in the final days of the war overwhelming the mighty Bf-109G of III Gruppe/JG5.

    On 26 March 1945, in a last action, FM-2's from 882 Squadron Lieut Comdr. GAM Flood, RNVR) off Searcher, escorting a flight of Avengers along the coast of Norway, was attacked near Christiansand by a flight of eight III Gruppe JG 5 Me-109Gs.

    The Wildcats (now called “Wildcat” instead of “Martlet” as the FAA adopts the USN names for carrier aircraft in January) shot down four of the Me-109Gs at a cost of one Wildcat damaged. A fifth 109 was claimed as damaged.

    As near as can be determined from available Luftwaffe loss lists, there were three 109’s lost, werk# 412398 (Fw. Hermannn Jaeger), 782139 (Uffz. Gottfried Rösch), and 782270 (Fw. Heinrich Dreisbach). One other 109 crashed, (pilot unknown) on landing, however the information available does not indicate if the crash was due to pilot error or from battle damage. Damage to this airplane was noted as 25%. Available Luftwaffe credit lists show no claims from this action.

    One other 109 crashed, (pilot unknown) on landing, however the information available does not indicate if the crash was due to pilot error or from battle damage. Damage to this airplane was noted as 25%. Available Luftwaffe credits lists show no claims from this action.


    HMS Pursuer D73 Escort Carrier

    http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chr...VE-Pursuer.htm


    One other notable Wildcat victory that took place on Feb 12 1944 Convoy OS-67/KMS-41, protected by 881 Squadron (Lieut. Comdr. DRB Cosh, RCNVR) and 896 Squadron (Lieut. Comdr. LA Hordern, DSC, RNVR), HMS Pursuer, was attacked by seven He-177s from II.KG-40 carrying the Henshel Hs-293 guided missile. Defending F4Fs shot down an He-177, a snooping FW-200 and drove off the remaining He-177s.



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  2. #2
    Good story Woofiedog,

    I wonder what model of 109G's these FM-2's were up against; from the G6 on the Wildcat would have the edge when it comes to turning but of course the 109's would have the speed/energy advantage, unless they were bounced. Perhaps all the experienced LW pilots had been transferred to Germany by then although JG5 did have some aces serving in Norway right up until the end of the war, or else they got a bit overconfident thinking the Wildcat easy meat.

    I've flown the Wildcat/FM-2 against the 109 both online and off; if the 109 pilot resists the temptation to TnB, you usually get to swim home...
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  3. #3
    Information I did find about III JG5 is that they were might of been operating the Bf-109G14 models. And there seems be be a fair number of Bf-109 survivors from this unit with twenty of JG 5's aircraft comprising six E-models, eight 109F-models and seven G-models still around.

    But at the same time JG5 was being blamed for the sinking of the Tirpitz so this must have effected the moral of the units in some fashion.

    Being overconfident would have a lot to answer why the Bf-109's were having a hard time or maybe there was a lack of knowledge about fighting qualities of the Grumman fighter that played into this story also. When the Boulton Paul Defiant fighter was first engaged by German pilots they were not having a good day either, although that was soon changed by frontal attacks where the Defiant's had no guns for protection.

    But credit has to be given to the pilot's of Squadron 882 as they had been in action for a while and must have known how to get the best out of their FM-2's they were flying at this time period.

    Whatever the reason for the failure of the JG5 pilot's to get the edge on the FM-2 pilots it sort of go's to show that the pilot and not always the aircraft is more of a factor in the air war.

    http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Jagdgeschwader/JG5-R.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3DOberleutnant%2BRudolf%2BGl%25C3%25B6c kner,%2BIII./JG%2B5%2B1944/1945%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DrVN%26tbo%3Dd%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-USfficial%26channel%3Dnp%26biw%3D1920%26bih%3D964&sa =X&ei=0-3AUP7WKOnO0QHi8oGIBQ&sqi=2&ved=0CGEQ7gEwBQ

    http://translate.google.com/translat...09-G14-JG5.htm
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  4. #4
    Pretty interesting. Though you wonder what the RAF expected to happen, still flying Wildcats at that late date. I imagine some of the Cats' luck had to do with the poor quality of Luftwaffe pilots late in the war.
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  5. #5
    still flying Wildcats at that late date

    Remember that the Finnish pilots were still flying the Brewster Buffalo till the end of the war and this aircraft produced 36 Finnish aces.

    I imagine some of the Cats' luck had to do with the poor quality of Luftwaffe pilots late in the war.

    Poor quality or poor moral of the Luftwaffe pilots?

    Quote...

    Walter Schuck in August of 1944 became commander of 10 staffel, JG 5. His new responsibility of Staffelkapitan did not come easily to Schuck, and discipline in 10./JG 5 deteriorated to the point that Geschwaderkommodore Heinrich Ehrler intervened with Schuck, before Schuck managed to restore the necessary military discipline.
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  6. #6
    Badsight-'s Avatar Senior Member
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    well IIRC, a Brewster Buffallo has the record of the most kills by a single aircraft.

    one plane used by multiple pilots surviving years of sorties

    then again im probablly remembering wrong
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  7. #7
    Originally Posted by woofiedog Go to original post
    still flying Wildcats at that late date

    Remember that the Finnish pilots were still flying the Brewster Buffalo till the end of the war and this aircraft produced 36 Finnish aces.

    I imagine some of the Cats' luck had to do with the poor quality of Luftwaffe pilots late in the war.

    Poor quality or poor moral of the Luftwaffe pilots?

    Quote...

    Walter Schuck in August of 1944 became commander of 10 staffel, JG 5. His new responsibility of Staffelkapitan did not come easily to Schuck, and discipline in 10./JG 5 deteriorated to the point that Geschwaderkommodore Heinrich Ehrler intervened with Schuck, before Schuck managed to restore the necessary military discipline.


    Well, the Finns were also able to do well against better Russian planes because of good tactics and because the Russian pilots were poor.

    Also my impression is that by 1944/45 the Germans were still able to produce planes and fuel but had a problem with supplying enough well-trained pilots to fly the planes. Can't be good for morale either if everyone keeps getting shot down as soon as they make their first few flights. Pretty sure that's what I got out of what people on these Il-2 forums have said. I could be wrong though.
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  8. #8
    Tully__'s Avatar Global Moderator
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    Originally Posted by Ba5tard5word Go to original post
    Also my impression is that by 1944/45 the Germans were still able to produce planes and fuel but had a problem with supplying enough well-trained pilots to fly the planes. Can't be good for morale either if everyone keeps getting shot down as soon as they make their first few flights. Pretty sure that's what I got out of what people on these Il-2 forums have said. I could be wrong though.
    The Germans had experienced pilots, but unlike the allies they would not rotate them out of combat units to train new pilots. This meant that fresh Luftwaffe pilots had little or no instruction from experienced combat pilots on current up to date tactics until they were in combat. It also meant that as losses mounted during the last months of the war, they had fewer and fewer experienced pilots even in front line units.
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  9. #9
    I agree that the new pilots coming into the frontline Luftwaffe units were more than just under trained and had little or no combat training before entering combat units. Much of that can be found in these simple facts.

    Quote...

    Many of the German fighter pilots who were sent up against the US formations in November 1944 had only three to five flight hours on a Bf 109 or an Fw 190

    The amount of fuel which was assigned to the flight training schools plummeted from 50,000 tons in April 1944 to 15,000 tons in August and merely 7,000 tons in October 1944.

    In the air battles going on over German cities there was also these allied advantages that were helping win the 1944-45 air battles, the K-14 gunsight and also the G-suit.


    But here are two aircraft the Grumman FM-2 and the Messerschmitt Bf-109G-6 & G-14 that had been used pretty much since the start of the war and were mostly being phased out by both sides still slugging it out in the last days of the war and being flown by fairly competent Luftwaffe and Royal Navy pilots over all. At first you would have to say that the Bf-109 would be the winner take all. But no... instead the clearly underdog in most all respects the FM-2 instead strikes down the mighty Messerschmitt Bf-109G.
    Yes we can give the Luftwaffe pilots a handicap and blame their training at first thought... but I believe it was more than just that one factor in this air battle.

    My first thought after reading about this air battle was a "what if"... France had received their shipments of the Wildcat early on before the May 10th Blitz??? Just a thought.

    http://ktsorens.tihlde.org/flyvrak/langskjera.html

    http://ktsorens.tihlde.org/flyvrak/tustna.html

    http://ktsorens.tihlde.org/flyvrak/klokksegga.html

    http://www.luftwaffe.be/miajg5.html
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  10. #10
    well IIRC, a Brewster Buffallo has the record of the most kills by a single aircraft.

    one plane used by multiple pilots surviving years of sorties

    then again im probablly remembering wrong

    I also recently read an article about the Buffalo that stated one of the 239 Brewster aircraft flown by different Finnish pilots had this distinction of the most credited kills by one single aircraft of the war.
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