1. #1
    I've seen probably dozens of WW2 documentaries that feature planes strafing ships with 2-3 second burst after which they (the ships) simply explode. Many of these I've recognized to be from the Pacific. Now I know that every US fighter apart from the Aircobra was armed only with .50 cal machineguns. Even heavy two engined attack bombers like the B-25 mostly used only .50 cal. Also, judging by the sound, the shape and colour of the tracers and hit marks on and around the ships, these planes were definetly using light guns or .50 cal machineguns since no other higher caliber weapon can have such a high rate of fire.

    So the million dollar question is: How can you make a ship explode just by strafing it with .50 cal (20 mm guns max) machineguns? What were these ships made of, paper?
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  2. #2
    I've seen probably dozens of WW2 documentaries that feature planes strafing ships with 2-3 second burst after which they (the ships) simply explode. Many of these I've recognized to be from the Pacific. Now I know that every US fighter apart from the Aircobra was armed only with .50 cal machineguns. Even heavy two engined attack bombers like the B-25 mostly used only .50 cal. Also, judging by the sound, the shape and colour of the tracers and hit marks on and around the ships, these planes were definetly using light guns or .50 cal machineguns since no other higher caliber weapon can have such a high rate of fire.

    So the million dollar question is: How can you make a ship explode just by strafing it with .50 cal (20 mm guns max) machineguns? What were these ships made of, paper?
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  3. #3
    They are filled with munitions or fuel. Do a search for Halifax Explosion and be in awe.
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  4. #4
    On a similar note, back in January I recall watching a show on the Discovery Wings channel featuring Mosquitos giving some German shipping a hard time. Very cool footage, but two things struck me: first, that the Mosquitos were engaging from very long distances, probably to avoid flak (which was light); secondly, that their marksmanship was AWFUL. They seldom hit with their cannon fire and they fired their rockets so early and from so far away that some of them arced out of the guncam's view before they hit the water.

    So, if any of you are like me, and shoot so badly that you can't successfully attack a hangar when you're parked in one, don't feel bad -- at least several Mosquito pilots were even worse.
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  5. #5
    It could also be a boiler explosion. Ever seen a clip of train strafing. Locomatives didn't carry explosive fuel. But they have a major explosion from boiler bein ruptured.
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  6. #6
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Helonwhls87:
    It could also be a boiler explosion. Ever seen a clip of train strafing. Locomatives didn't carry explosive fuel. But they have a major explosion from boiler bein ruptured.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Rather doubt it would be a boiler explosion. The boilers and Steam turbines were typically below the waterline and along the keel. A .50cal, 20mm, or even a 30mm would have a hard time penetrating that far. Besides boilers are made very strong to withstand the pressures in a steam system (300-1200 psi). In effect they are armored to a degree.

    One sure way you can tell a boiler has exploded is a white or grey plume. A lot like a steam train when it's hit.
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  7. #7
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Captain_Avatar:
    Rather doubt it would be a boiler explosion. The boilers and Steam turbines were typically below the waterline and along the keel. A .50cal, 20mm, or even a 30mm would have a hard time penetrating that far. Besides boilers are made very strong to withstand the pressures in a steam system (300-1200 psi). In effect they are armored to a degree.

    One sure way you can tell a boiler has exploded is a white or grey plume. A lot like a steam train when it's hit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I guess It would all depend on the size on the boat. Most of the strafing clips I've seen were on smaller types of vessels. Which I think would be possible to get a boiler explosion. If you can get a locomotive which as you stated would be armored to a degree to explode by rupturing it's boiler I'd think it would be possible with a small ship as well.

    I'm not claiming to be a expect on explosions or boilers. Just stating another option as to why sometimes there is a huge explosion. Just my .02

    [This message was edited by Helonwhls87 on Fri March 19 2004 at 07:09 PM.]
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  8. #8
    I guess the next logical question is this modeled in FB? I haven't tested the durability of the ships except with the torpedo bombers available now much less with guns.


    Like the moon over
    The day, my genious and brawn
    Are lost on these fools
    ~Haiku
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  9. #9
    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g t;&gt;On a similar note, back in January I recall watching a show on the Discovery Wings channel featuring Mosquitos giving some German shipping a hard time. Very cool footage, but two things struck me: first, that the Mosquitos were engaging from very long distances, probably to avoid flak (which was light); secondly, that their marksmanship was AWFUL. They seldom hit with their cannon fire and they fired their rockets so early and from so far away that some of them arced out of the guncam's view before they hit the water.

    So, if any of you are like me, and shoot so badly that you can't successfully attack a hangar when you're parked in one, don't feel bad -- at least several Mosquito pilots were even worse. &lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;


    Hi

    These Mosquito pilots you may have noticed where doing it for real, not playing FB or IL2 where you get more than one chance at a mission if you screw up. Would you press home an attack in real life in the same way that you do in FB? or would you prefer to give yourself a chance of seeing another day and firing of your ordnance at maximum range in order to do so? A plane or pilot lost for real cannot be replaced by simply pressing "Refly"

    Consider the reasons why the marksmanship was awfull? Jinking to avoid real ammunition coming at you and probably a lot more than you could see on the filmage was probably a good enough reason. Perhaps the orders given for the mission dictated that they are not to get in close. Don't confuse real combat with computer games or range firing.

    Zack Laws
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  10. #10
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MustangWZI:
    I guess the next logical question is this modeled in FB? I haven't tested the durability of the ships except with the torpedo bombers available now much less with guns.

    http://server6.uploadit.org/files/MustangWZI-sig5.JPG
    Like the moon over
    The day, my genious and brawn
    Are lost on these fools
    ~Haiku<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This was why i posted this thread. P-47 is useless (so attacking ships with .50 cal is a no-no in FB), but I've also tried Fw-190 with 20 mm and 103 gunpods 30 mm, the Aircobra with the 37 mm, the 108 gunpods on Fw-190, Il-2 3M (not sure about the designation, the '43 model with 2 37 mm anti-tank guns)...- pretty much everything except Yaks with big guns. None of those worked. Of course, I WAS attacking smaller ships eg. german gunboats (those slow 8 knot ships you can find in the object viewer) and schnell-boot, soviet gunboats and submarine chasers. At least the Sturmovik should make an impact, if the thing was capable of destroying tanks it should definetely be able do destroy german gunboats with 20 mm armour max. If the theory about boiler rooms is correct (it probably is, thanx guys) then we should see a big bang after releasing 100-200 AP and HE-I projectiles. It was by far the most effective way of attacking small shipping-just pound them with high caliber shells roaring away at high speed and they can't touch you. Well, that would be true if only the guns could do some damage.

    The reason for this thread was that I just remembered that FB is more than dogfighting so I decided to try a little anti-shipping missions. Started with the soviets and torpedo armed Il-2 but the flak is just awful. You have to come in low at medium speed and I never make it, if I do manage to release a torpedo I never manage to run away without significant damage. Once I attacked a convoy consisting of Admiral Murgesku and 2 german gunboats with a flight of 4 torpedo armed Il-2s and everyone was downed before ever reaching the target. Very dangerous business, torpedo attacks on ships. Plus the ships seem too immune to even torpedo hits. A broadside hit to Admiral Murgesku and it went on as if nothing had happened. A ship of that size (basicly a small destroyer-frigate) would be crippled if not completely sunk by just one torpedo hit. Well, since there is no Pe-2, that is about it for soviet bombers. Next I tried the germans, but it is even worse with them. He-111 is way to big and slow to be an effective torpedo bomber against anything other than unarmed merchant ships, it is just too big a target not to get caught up in flak. Pity since it has a pretty decent payload. Stuka was very precise anti-shipping weapon but not in my hands can't hit sh*t with it. So I was left looking for alternatives to attack ships and I suddenly remembered all those footage I saw. I realy expected that I'd be able to do some damage to smaller ships with fighters armed with 20-30 mm guns and rockets, but no. Guns are pretty much useless, even though pilots used them quite succesfully in RL agyinst smaller ships and merchantmen, even .50 cal machineguns. The rockets are pretty useful though.

    I think the Pe-2 and Ju-88C-6 would add a lot to anti-shipping missions, not the mention the Beaufighter and the Mosquito. Pe-2 is, I think, more manuverable than the He-111 and could carry a bigger payload than Il-2 (one torpedo that doesn't make enough damage), plus a dive attack would be quite precise. Ju-88, Beau and the Mossie would be the best though, since a combination of large payload of rockets/bombs plus more effective 20 mm guns and large caliber guns would be devastating. Plus, you have two engines to soak up the damage, and defensive gunners for Ju-88.
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