SH4 Screenshot Comps.......Open Discussion | Forums

[MWolfe1963]

That's interesting. I didn't say his pictures were enhanced nor did I read that anyone else did. I griped that he wins all the time, but that was just a gripe and that's the way the cookie crumbles. I spoke generally about any and all participants when I talked about editing photos in photoshop, etc., etc..
I'm curious as to how you assumed I was speaking of MWolfe. Any enforcement of rules and regulations would encompass all the entrants, not just MWolfe.

No, I never have used any enhancements like photoshop, cept maybe in th old days to adjust brightness of night shots which is allowed, nor did I read anywhere that you stated I did, nor did I for that matter. Certainly one can enhance graphics with mods, high end cards, tweaking video, etc.....All allowed and all do it.

I've done well for the last 3 years or so, but I think lack of participates results in such a high win percent. Still, people rave about me winning all the time, but my win % is probably around 30-40%. I did have a few runs last year winning several using TMO alone. Years ago I entered just as good of shots, but with so many other people entering good shots I won about 10% of the time.
Take last months, only two entries, I had a 50% chance from the start.

[MWolfe1963]

The major problem I see is that there is no anonymity, I know Mwofes environments, Werns skins, Andypants battleship, and I myself have custom conning tower art. Some like myself have posted screenies of their new "toys" just prior to the next comp. There needs to be at least fifteen to twenty participants who all use a completely different style of screenie each month so they can remain anonymous.

About the picture size, as a female I will tell you once and for all.....size does count ! anyone who told you different were just being polite and already knew they were in possession of a great story to tell their friends on the next girls night out (or boys night, my apologizes Mwolfe and/or Wern).

Maybe there could be a custom comp and a non-custom comp, but even non-custom can be debated when it comes to attainable mods. Anyways I'll leave it up to you old timers.

Edit: At the time of this edit, there were 99 views to this post, but how many actually enter the comps.....4,7,8,10 at the most?

Donna, I don't get what you mean by this..

"There needs to be at least fifteen to twenty participants who all use a completely different style of screenie each month so they can remain anonymous".

Size matters, you mean my wife has been lying to me all these years. I would tell a good joke, but don't wanna get banned.

[WernherVonTrapp]

MWolfe wrote...

"I don't know how to make it more fair, many of us use mods, make our own enviroments, add ships and skins, etc....other don't, so they are at a disadvantage "

Got it from the man himself...

Ahhh, OK, but that's not enhancing his SS. That is currently allowed, and one of the gray areas (for reasons explained in my previous post) that I was talking about. It doesn't make sense that one is allowed to change normal coloring in the coding but you're not allowed to do it in photoshop. Something needs to be changed. Using an environmental, or any other readily available mod is OK in my mind, but where should we draw the line before all the rules and regulations are circumvented through other means?
Lets face it, if it's considered a violation to change the SS colors through the use of photoshop, how can it be considered legal to do it through any other means?
Anyway, the fact of the matter is that, unfortunately, changing the colors of sunsets, water, etc., through manipulation of the software code is currently legal and to do it through any photo editing software is not. This is not a slight or accusation against any particular member since it applies to everyone. It's just a matter of fact that I feel needs to be addressed or clarified in the rules and regulations (which have not been updated for quite some time). My personal opinion is that such manipulation of colors through software code is the same as if one does it through a photo editor, and should only be allowed in the return of the "Edited SS Competition". Edited, meaning through any means. If not, why have any Rules and Regulations. If the Rs & Rs are thrown out the window, that would be fine with me, but don't put up rules that are allowed to be violated through other avenues. It's not about the participants, it's about the Rs & Rs.

[MWolfe1963]

May help if you understand the difference, what you can do in game in no way reflects what you can do with PS. Just compare the several env. mods out there, each uses different colors for all factors to a small or large degree, The other issues is in most env. mods colors change steadily, more during set periods such as sunset, just watch the sky from 5-say complete sunset, they change every second.They're literally 1000's of values in the env. files, no matter what color you use the sun will effect them as the day progresses.

I pulled these two SS, some of the first I ever took, so probably was using Env.4, most would say they're nice, they have oranges, pinks, ect. I don't see where my changes give me any advantage over these. Many would say these look better.





You keep referring to this as a gray area, it's not, it's been discussed and allowed for years, a few years ago it was just more common. The question is if we start limiting mods, how do we decide, they're numerous mods big and small that change env. settings, heck many you can't find anymore, but you can combine certain mods for different looks. I currently have a total of 12 mods loaded that effect env. files in one way or the other. I bet they're over 20 small mods just for clouds alone. Real Env has as much pink sky as I use, mine is just more at late sunset. Should we have an approved mods list, I think that would only hurt, because everyone uses so many different setups. It may not apply as much today with so few involved, but in times past it sure did. What happens if someone feels someone is not using an approved mod or tweaked it because it looks different, you can't prove anything. It's fairly easy to tell when PS is used, adjusting the env files doesn't effect it like that.

The other issue for me is, env. files are connected to sensor files, I have spend 100's of hour fine tuning my env to work with sensors the way I like to play, which is very hard. So many files are connected and effect each other, I lose my envs, I lose all my work. I take my SS during actual game play, I would hate to have to go back to the way it was before and lose all my work. I guess I could use my setup to play, and then just load TMO and try to get SS for the contest. Again, I won a lot more when I used TMO alone with more people entering than do now. For me, it's not that one mod is better than the other, I often get tired of the same old looks and will tweak from time to time just for something different. Again, I don't see env mods effecting voting, as stated my best sunsets hardly get votes and look no better than any other, it's just a matter of taste to me. Are the Beetles better than the Stones, is orange prettier than pink........totally subjective, what colors you use and enhancing colors for effect is totally different.

Again, the issue to me is stock vs. env. mods, but that is choice.

It's up to you guys, but I think the regulations and rules we've had for years work fine. I've always been open, I've started many threads detailing how to take winning SS, displayed my mod list, etc. I'm alway available if a new player needs help or wants to know what to do....for a small fee, but girls I don't charge. So we either make it better or we all use the same mod or go back to stock, beyond that I see a mess of conflict.........course conflict seems to be the only thing that stirs the old forum up and may be a good thing.

[WernherVonTrapp]

You keep referring to this as a gray area, it's not, it's been discussed and allowed for years

I have been a member here for years and have not seen, much less participated in any such threads.
Sooo, you actually believe being able to change the sunset colors (in the software code) to much more beautiful hues and contrasts (not found in any of the mods) gives you no advantage? How can you believe that? Simplying saying or impying that doesn't equate it as fact. And, don't be so certain that this cannot be accomplished in Photoshop. Have you visited any of the Photoshop forums? It's amazing what can be done with that program. You might even find yourself in disbelief that such editing can be accomplished. Like I said a couple of times already, change the rules and regulations to allow for any type of editing, whether pre or post SS, it's still an editing, through coding or from a program. I'm referring to the principle. People never use anything that doesn't give them some type of an advantage in any particular situation. That's a "given" or a "staple" of human behavior. You change the coding because you know it looks better with your gaming experience, thus giving you an advantage in that experience. Why would you think it will not have the same effect in a competition? To suggest otherwise is a curiosity to me.
But now, you're forcing me to defend a statement which will have the inevitable effect of making it seem as if I'm singling you out. My issue is with the Rules & Regulations. If I can ultimately produce the same effects with Photoshop that you get with coding, why can't I use Photoshop?
I can clearly see the principle here and I'm curious as to why anyone would be confused with the point I've clearly stated. Does no one else see what I'm saying? It's not rocket science. It's pretty basic really.

[MWolfe1963]

I think we just had a recent thread, seems during one of Wolfez's running the contest, may have been over staged shots, but he explained what all is allowed, basically any thing within the game code, env mods, skins, custom art, ships, staged shots, single mission designs, etc...Edits by the rules have alway been altering shots outside of the game with software not used by the game. I also recall other threads about it when many entered years ago, heck, I begged one guy for his scene dat files.

No, I don't believe my changes give me any advantage more than any other Env. mod, my sunset shots entered get less votes than other Env sunset shots entered, just compare...

I think 90% of us use Env. mods, including yourself, they all edit the game files, You yourself are using edited game files since you use TMO that uses Env5 that Duci has heavily adjusted....If we exclude mods so no game edits are allowed, the only option is stock. If we allow mods, it's subjective to the taste of the individual.. All mods use 100's of hues, do we start picking out what colors are allowed, that's basically what you're saying.? The only way to solve your issue is no one runs any mods , who will do that? Go back and look at my wins in 2010/11, I had a much higher win percent using Env4, but I don't think people vote on which color pattern happens during sunset.

No, I don't change colors because I think they look better or they give advantage, I get bored with the same looks year after year and just want something different. You keep speaking of advantage, past voting clearly shows any shot can win and no env. mod seems to show any advantage over the other, but anyone that wants to win should do all they can to enter great shots within rules we had for years.

I'm working with another modder on releasing our work combined, the issue again is the mass changes I've made to sensor-env connections. I doubt few will like my very hard style of play, so we're just gonna pull the clouds out and do a mod on that... Still, even if I release it, I will continue to tweak colors, some weeks I like pink sunsets, some weeks orange, etc

[WernherVonTrapp]

So, what you're trying to convince me of is that, no one noticed the difference in the colors of your environment SS, and no one asked you to make it into a readily available mod? If I get bored with the colors of my SS, I can adjust them in Photoshop. The issue is not about color preferences, or whether one gets bored with colors or not. I give up. I'm beating a dead horse and you're dancing around it.

[MWolfe1963]

You use TMO, so you're also using highly editied filters, shaders and env settings as 90% of us probably do, so to me it's still a simple issue does one color look better than the other, that's subjective.

You keep saying it's not about colors, the top 3 env mods used each have a different color scheme, which is better, so I add another color scheme, who decides what colors at sunset look the best? However, they're numerous mods out there beyond these three that effect colors, how do you decide which ones are best because of peoples color preferences? If you go by voting, it appears I would lose on best color scheme. I still enter many older shots, more of those have won than with my newer settings, so which mod is better?

The bigger issue, and I agree with your point, env mods edit the look of stock game to great effect and in many parts you can do some things that PS would do. I agree it's a good point. So the first issue is do we now exclude all env mods? You're other point is released mods vs. non released mods, simply we agree on what mods are allowed to be used, how do we do it? They're probably 12 major mods and 100 smaller mods that edit env, do we put them all to the vote? Many use dozens of mods that connect to env files, but only make minor changes you may not notice, is it fair a person can't use a certain mod because it may make even minor changes to env files?

I would have no problem with env mods being cosidered edited, but that causes another problem, in our past edited contest people imported many textures, pictures, etc, outside of the game and blended them in, I don't know how to do that, so would we have to have an env in game only contest and a superedited contest? Just look at some of the past edit wins, amazing works of art, some even sell them online. Tei for example.....no ones env changes can't compete with his heavy editing skills using tools, etc, outside of the game. Look at his gallery, many of the sub shots were edited shots he won with, no one can do this inside the game files. This is what I mean by you can tell a PS shot vs game env. shot easily.
http://tei77.deviantart.com/gallery/

So again to me the issue is simply colors which is subjective, many like mine, many don't, some even made funny comments about pinks, so they like orange better, fine with me. They're 100's of mods and 1000's of colors, how do you really decide which ones are allowed? It would lead to mass hysteria here......Beyond envs, do we also set rules on what ships, skins, art, staged, etc. Tambor would be a month filling in all the fine print.

I don't know, I wasn't here when it started, but my guess here is the rule "edited shots are considered any changes after the shot using tools outside of the game" came from discussion. but my guess is what we're doing now has been done before. Maybe it's time for a rule change, I don't know if or how we would do it, but I'm OK with whatever the group decides.


Ending...haha......Beginning to wonder if it matters, seems only me and you are into the discussion

[WernherVonTrapp]

Ending...haha......Beginning to wonder if it matters, seems only me and you are into the discussion

Probably not. Gee, I hope we didn't scare the other members away.
You think we'd have at least gotten a comment for "Honorable Mention" in the Entertainment category.

[MWolfe1963]

I can see it now, 20 years from now the forum will be down to me and you debating like it matters...... Maybe Tambor can shed some light, think he was around in the beginning.