1. #1
    I often wondered if Erich Hartmanns claims would stand up to this kind of scrutiny. I know the Luftwaffe did not use " gun cameras" to the extent the US did. How many if any of his claims were verified with camera's?


    http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/r...ki/anabuki.htm
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  2. #2
    I often wondered if Erich Hartmanns claims would stand up to this kind of scrutiny. I know the Luftwaffe did not use " gun cameras" to the extent the US did. How many if any of his claims were verified with camera's?


    http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/r...ki/anabuki.htm
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  3. #3
    Buzzsaw-'s Avatar Senior Member
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    All sides overclaimed during the war, although the Japanese, Soviets and Italians were the worst offenders. There has been some suggestion that the Japanese overclaimed in the area of 4-1.

    Interestingly enough, when checking the claims of German or Western Allied Aces, they usually stand up pretty well, better than the claims of pilots who were not so successful.

    Claims on the East Front are very difficult to ascertain, as Soviet records are not that clear.

    The fighter pilot who is commonly considered to have the most raw talent, by other Luftwaffe experten, is Hans Joachim M****ille who claimed some 158 Allied aircraft, all Western Allied. (although he obviously didn't score as many victories as Hartmann) His claims can be checked against known Allied losses.

    (please excuse all the asterisks in Ma.rseilles name, the idiotic server here doesn't like the word ar.se)

    M****ille's most famous day was on September 1st 1942, when he claimed 17 kills.

    Here is a detailed analysis of one of the several combats which M****ille was involved in that day:

    Between 17:30 and 18:00 hours of that day, the Ju-88's of III/KG77, as well as a few from LG-1 flew a mission to attack British ground troops in the El Alamein area.

    The Ju's were assigned escorting 109's. I/JG27 was assigned close escort, and II/JG27 as loose escort. III/JG27 was sent on a Frei-Jagd ahead of the two other Gruppes.

    For their part, the RAF scrambled 3 Squadrons to intercept. Spitfire V's of No. 145 Squadron, Hurricane II's of No 33 Squadron, and Hurricane II's of No. 213 Squadron.

    The aircraft of No. 33, and No. 145 Squadron encountered the 109's of III/JG27, an inconclusive combat developed, II/JG27 entered the fray, and eventually all aircraft dispersed with no losses on any side.

    The Ju88's, with I/JG27 escorting, continued on. There were eleven 109 pilots present from I/JG27, including M****ille, Lt. H.A. Stahlschmidt, Lt. Lieres and Obfw. Steinhausen, all four were high scoring Aces.

    On an interception course, were 9 pilots of No. 213 Squadron. These were split into three sections, two high cover with 6 pilots, those being F.L. Waite, (British) F.O. Wollaston and Potter, (both Australian) F.O. Avis, (a RCAF American) Flt Sgt Ross, (a Canadian) and Sgt Garrod. (British) The low section had 3 pilots, those being F.L. Green, (British) and F.O.'s Houle and Steele. (both Canadians) This RAF Squadron was still operating with the "Vic" formation of 3 pilots per section.

    The six pilots of the No. 213 Squadron high section were attacked by the eleven pilots of I/JG27, the three No 213 Squadron pilots of the low section were able to attack the Ju88's of III/KG77 unmolested, and forced them to jettison their bombs and abort the attack.

    German Claims

    The following claims were posted by the Germans:

    M****ille: 5 aircraft shot down, all accepted, victories number 117 to 121.

    Stahlschmidt: 2 aircraft shot down, all accepted, victories number 49 and 50.

    Lieres: 1 aircraft shot down, accepted, 18th victory.

    Steinhausen: 1 aircraft shot down, accepted, 37th victory.

    Total claims 9 aircraft shot down.


    British Losses


    No 213 Squadron admitted the following losses:

    Wollaston: Killed

    Potter: Killed

    Avis: Crashlanded, aircraft destroyed.

    Ross: Crashlanded, aircraft destroyed.

    Garrod: Bailed out, aircraft destroyed.


    In addition, a single Photo Recon Hurricane of No. 208 Squadron which unfortunately found itself in the wrong place, was also lost. Pilot survived. This plane was likely shot down by Lieres, since he specifies encountering a lone Hurricane away from the main combat.

    From the above, we can see that excluding Lieres victory over the Photo Recon Hurricane, the remaining Germans claimed 8 victories over 5 actual losses. That is an overclaim of 1.6 to 1.

    As to who actually shot down aircraft and who did not, is impossible to determine.

    In combat, confusion is the norm, and it is likely that the various pilots took shots at the same aircraft and probably quite honestly thought they had been responsible for downing it.


    How about the British side?


    British Claims:

    F.L. Waite: 1 Ju-88 destroyed, accepted.

    F.O. Houle: 1 Ju-88 destroyed, accepted. (this victory was confirmed by several sources and is the most solid)

    F.Sgt. Avis: 1 Ju-88 destroyed, accepted. (this claim was most questionable, since pilot was a rookie)

    F.L. Steele: 1 Ju-88 damaged, accepted.


    German Losses:


    Obfw Moritz's Ju-88 32+KR of III/KG77 was shot down.

    In addition, members of III/KG77 reported seeing another Ju-88 crew bailing out, although the records for LG-1 cannot be found to confirm this loss.

    In addition several other Ju-88's of III/KG77 landed with battle damage.


    So we see that there was an overclaim on the part of the British of at least 1.5 to 1.

    Again, I doubt that the RAF pilots were deliberately overclaiming, it is likely once again, that in the confusion, several made attacks on the same plane, and seeing it crash, both claimed.


    I have included this example to show a bit of the reality of combat and claiming. There are no messages appearing in print in front of a real pilot saying "Enemy Aircraft Destroyed", or "So in So, shot down So in So". Imagine FB without those little text announcements. There would be a lot of confusion and overclaiming too.

    The fact is, there was overclaiming by all sides during the war. Some were worse than others, and some were bad at certain times, and not so bad at others. Very often sides which were claiming over enemy territory would overclaim more. However, it was not nessesarily the case, especially when as for example with the USAAF, they had guncams.

    We know the Germans heavily overclaimed during the Battle of Britain. We also know the British heavily overclaimed during the 'KanalKampf', or the war over the channel in '41/'42. We also know the Soviets heavily overclaimed during '41/'42, and their average overclaim was at least 4-1. Japanese claims were also very suspect, likely being up in the area of 4-1. Italian were around 3-1.

    For the Germans, British and Americans, the overclaim seems to be between 1.5 and 2 to 1.
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  4. #4
    Fehler's Avatar Senior Member
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    It would have been much easier if they only recorded a kill when they got the "Enemy Aircraft Destroyed" message... lol
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  5. #5
    There is a very detailed book on the RAAF(and Desert Air force) in the western desert called "Desert Warriors".

    The writer devotes a fair amount of time to the topic of over claiming by pilots, he takes the example of the air battle where M****illes claimed I believe 5 or 6 in a few minutes. He dissects the claims made by the Germans in total on that day which from memory come to 21.

    He then compares them to the total losses shown by the Desert air force (239 wing who were the main opponents of the Germans that day) which adds up to 8 planes, including a Hurricane that was downed away from the air battle that the claims of 21 came from.

    The out come of this claim by M****illes and co means that from the confirmed 8 losses, we have the Germans counting 21 to the totals of the individual pilots.

    My own thoughts are that the propaganda machines made heroes of its own sides Pilots and that being the case, it lead to both sides over stating in the same cause of raising moral both at home and at the front.

    I remember reading a case of a well respected pilot who when he landed claimed 3 enemy kills yet his ground crew could see he had not fired his guns!!

    I am sure you will find people here who will argue this way and that, but the case of M****illes and his 6 planes in 5 minutes or what ever it was was taken apart in the book Desert Warriors by Russell Brown. In my opinion he gives a very strong case.
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  6. #6
    M_Gunz's Avatar Banned
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    Do I have this right?

    The British claim 4 Ju-88's and only 1 is confirmed to have been lost equals "at least" 1.5 to 1?

    Looks more 4 to 1 to me. What part did I miss? Do landed damaged count towards claims?
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  7. #7
    Buzzsaw-'s Avatar Senior Member
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
    Do I have this right?

    The British claim 4 Ju-88's and only 1 is confirmed to have been lost equals "at least" 1.5 to 1?

    Looks more 4 to 1 to me. What part did I miss? Do landed damaged count towards claims? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yeah, you missed the part where I noted that 3 Ju-88's were claimed destroyed, and one damaged. (not 4 destroyed) You also missed the part when I mentioned one III/KG77 Ju-88 reported seeing the crew of another, non-KG77 Ju-88 bailing out. Since LG-1 had the only other participating Ju-88's in the mission, it must have been one of their aircraft. Unfortunately, due to the fact LG-1's records are spotty, it can't be confirmed through those. But it is clear that a second Ju-88 went down.

    Another anomaly re. German loss records. Because of the German method of recording aircraft losses, it is possible that some of the other battle damaged Ju-88's might have been written off later but would not have been recorded as a loss, due to the fact that while crew wounded or killed, and aircraft totally destroyed or missing were noted on the day, non-total losses, or write-offs, were noted monthly as part of an administrative report. As well, written-off aircraft were often not noted as a loss in a given month if the non-flying hulks could be used as spare parts. Sometimes a hulk would be used for several months before being counted as a loss. All this makes confirming Allied claims difficult.
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  8. #8
    Buzzsaw-'s Avatar Senior Member
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fehler:
    It would have been much easier if they only recorded a kill when they got the "Enemy Aircraft Destroyed" message... lol </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    You can actually get rid of those messages in IL-2.

    Would be funny to do that on the public servers, and see all the yelling and screaming which would go on as different people in a furball claimed a kill as their own...
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  9. #9
    Erkki_M's Avatar Senior Member
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    Also, the server may switch off the kill reports (only xxx was killed are shown) - anyone getting "ea destroyed" -message cant be sure if it was a real kill or if he made it to the airfield, unless of course he saw his victim crash/bail/lose tail/wing etc.
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  10. #10
    M_Gunz's Avatar Banned
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fehler:
    It would have been much easier if they only recorded a kill when they got the "Enemy Aircraft Destroyed" message... lol </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    You can actually get rid of those messages in IL-2.

    Would be funny to do that on the public servers, and see all the yelling and screaming which would go on as different people in a furball claimed a kill as their own... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Hyperlobby would have to get a debrief room where guncams can be shown to make claims from
    then each side can fess up or the log can tell how many of what were lost on chat.
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