1. #1
    From looking around, its seems to me from ur posts and from what other ppl say about you that you are the Focke Wulf Guru around here, I was wonderin if u wouldnt mind helpin me out a bit.

    Can u tell me the best climb and turn speeds for A9 D9(44 version) and TA152H? At What altitudes are they most effective? Is it true that the A-series FWs are ONLY good for hit and run, and are usually only successful with element of surprise? Can they not stay and tangle with other A/C? What about 44'Dora, Can it mix it up or is it purely hit and run? I would think it would make a good E fighter but then again I dunno, thats why I'm typin this. Same question for the TA.

    How do they compare to each other? From what I've tried I think 44'D9 is fastest, then TA, the A9.
    A9 has best firepower, then TA, then 44'D9.
    44'D9 accelerates best, then TA, then A9.
    A9 rolls best, then 44'D9, then TA.
    At high speeds 44'D9 seems to turn best, at lower speeds TA, A9 comes in last in turning department.
    At steady climbs both 44'D9 and TA climb pretty nice, not sure which climbs better, A9 loses in climbing department.
    Zoom climb: I think Dora is best at this, then TA, then A9.
    I tried them out at around 4000-5000m btw.

    Now how do they compare to some of their adversaries, in paticular P51 SpitIXHF and La7. I think 44'Dora can outclimb P51 and La7 but not so sure about Spit. I think it can only out turn them at speeds 450km/h and higher. I think it out-rolls them all. I think its faster than all of them and accelerates better than all of them. I think it can zoom climb better than all of them.

    I think TA is faster and accelerates better than call of them. I think it outclimbs P51 and La7, again not sure about Spit tho. I think it out turns them all at 450km/h or higher and maybe can turn with P51 at lower speeds. I'm not sure how its roll compares to them, and
    I think it zoom climbs better than all three.

    I dont think the A9 can outclimb any of them, I think the A9 is faster than Spit but not sure about P51 and La7, I'm not sure if it accelerates better than these three. It think it out rolls them all, I think it only out turns them at speeds above 450km/h, and I think it zoom climbs better than them.

    Tell me what u agree with and dont agree with and add any helpful info.

    Thanks in Advance,
    The Fish

    P.S. I like the FWs, they are different and cool
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  2. #2
    o, btw, I use PF+FB+AEP
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  3. #3
    Zen--'s Avatar Senior Member
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    Howdy Fish,

    I'm not the only one who has experience with the 190, but I'll share what I know which is mostly about the D9 44'. Hunde and others know more about the Antons than I do and I'm sure they'll chime in. Also I am still evaluating PF so most of my experience naturally is with FB when the Dora was introduced and the Tank with AEP release, though I have been flying the Anton since IL2 original.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>How do they compare to each other? From what I've tried I think 44'D9 is fastest, then TA, the A9.
    A9 has best firepower, then TA, then 44'D9.
    44'D9 accelerates best, then TA, then A9.
    A9 rolls best, then 44'D9, then TA.
    At high speeds 44'D9 seems to turn best, at lower speeds TA, A9 comes in last in turning department.
    At steady climbs both 44'D9 and TA climb pretty nice, not sure which climbs better, A9 loses in climbing department.
    Zoom climb: I think Dora is best at this, then TA, then A9. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Thats pretty much the gist of it with the D9 usually coming out slightly ahead of all the rest in most departments. Besides it being my favorite 190, I've always found the Dora to be a more competitive E fighter than the rest of the 190's, though it's not nearly as good at pure BnZ as the Antons due to lack of firepower, and of course it carries no bombs.

    (Since the changes to the Ta152 in PF I will go ahead and lump it in with the D9 and make specific note where appropriate)
    Best climb speeds are in the 280 km/h range for the D9 with high AoA. In PF I can sustain 24-26m/s climb in the D9 and the Ta152 can now do that as well, or close to it. The A9 never does as good, being somewhere around 22m/s and has always lagged behind the D9 for some reason. Depending on altitude your indicated airspeed might go as low as 200 km/h, but 240-280km/h is a reasonable speed to hold. The key in my opinion is to watch the vertical rate indicator and if you can keep it in the 24-26m/s range, you are holding maximum sustained climb rate. Be aware of using a step-climb technique to take advantage of level acceleration, which is even more effective in PF than ever before. If you notice the bandit gaining on you in the climb, you can drop the nose slightly to pick up speed, then pull back into the sustained climb again. In this way you are effectively getting close to maximum sustained climb speed as well as the benefits of rapid acceleration, sort of combining into a series of mini zoom climbs.
    Antons tend to climb at a higher speed with a more shallow angle...I've done pretty well with 380-400km/h climbs and still holding 20m/s vertical rate, though I can't say for sure thats optimal. On paper the A9 should climb the same as the D9 but for whatever reason the version we have in game doesn't, so adjustments have to be made.

    The nice thing about the Ta152 now is that it can hold extreme an AoA during zoom climb now, which to my knowledge is reasonable due to it's long span with very large leading edge area. This gives it a very effective ability to energy fight in the last 100km/h of vertical climbing as speed drops from 200km/h down to stall at 120km/h wingover...impressive gains can be made in this low speed range, but naturally there is a great element of risk to flying that close to 0 E state. I wouldn't fly that tactic as a routine, but its nice to know if you end up in a tight ugly little E fight that the Ta might be able to pull out the advantage, whereas before in AEP there was effectively no chance in a Tank. Also I said a long time ago that based on real life accounts I expected the Ta to fly like a D9 but with better turning ability, I think now in PF we have that plane. Energy retention is reasonable, acceleration matches the logical connection with the Dora, turning ability is more practical now due to energy issues being reworked and the plane has considerably better handling overall. Nicely done I say, but it remains to be seen if the global changes in the physics engine that benefit high thrust to weight ratio planes like the Tank will hurt the rest of the sim as a whole...lots of complaints about tame stalling characteristics, infinite turns without E bleed etc, from people who fly lots of other kinds of planes. Time will tell I guess. ]

    A good way to test relative zoom climb ability is to start at SL at 600km/h and pull back on the stick until vertical. Hold the aircraft steady with the rudder but let it fall over when it wants to. I pulled on the stick to achieve the vertical climb within about 2-3 seconds in order to minimize E loss during pullup and let the planes zoom to about 150km/h airspeed. It takes a little practice and is a little rough, but it gives you an idea of relative performance...the D9 could achieve close to 1600m altitude with the Ta152 coming in the high 1500's.


    As far as historical matchups, I haven't flown PF enough to get a good handle yet but I do have some observations:

    D9 vs P51.
    This is going to be a really tight match here, just like it used to be in FB 1.22. Back then both planes had nearly identical extreme edge performance during heavy manuevering and they seem to be very closely matched again. The mustang has an edge in turn rate still I think but now the D9 has an advantage in acceleration, which is very usefull during E fighting at close ranges. This matches up very well with many of the historical accounts I've read and is very believable, compared to the 2.04 mustang which had to simply pull back on the stick to defeat the D9. Now in PF both planes will have to fly right on the edge and the guy who makes the first mistake will probably lose...but my money is on the D9 because of the superior acceleration, and maybe because I simply fly it more. The main thing here is to avoid sustained turns with the mustang and try to keep the fight in the vertical, though not necessarily by looping mind you. Don't forget the scissors, when all else fails you can usually force an overshoot or horizontal parity if you fly it right.

    D9 vs La7.
    Here's another tough match with the advantage overall being with the La7, unless the D9 pilot is very very good. The skill level to fly both planes is markedly different, so the average D9 jock is going to be outclassed by the average La7 jock simply because the La7 is much more of a point and shoot aircraft. This is where it's important to be really familar with the D9 and to know it's fine edge, because the only way to beat an La7 is to either BnZ with altitude advantage, or E fight him on that exact fine edge. The La7 climb rate should be the same as the D9, E retention is going to be better, La7 turn rate obviously extremely better and SL speed is nearly the same so outrunning the La is going to be risky at close range. The only definate advantage the D9 has over the La7 is dive speed (and hopefully now dive acceleration) but while diving is great, by itself it doesn't win fights. A smart La7 driver is going to break off his dive before you do and hover at a higher altitude, so use caution before hitting lightspeed in the dive. You might be able to get down faster, but he might be waiting for you to come back up.

    D9 vs Spitfire.
    This one is finally fixed and imho is no contest, the D9 is going to outfly the Spit. The spit bleeds E during turns now and can no longer do the vertical 180 degree reversal and catch the D9 like it can in 2.04, which never made sense anyway. The easy way to defeat the spit is to stay faster and stay in the vertical...it's not a strong vertical dogfighter anymore and this is where the D9 is going to shine. Naturally avoid turning with the spit unless at very high speeds but even then I prefer to spend the energy climbing rather than burn it turning around. Think not only of relative E state when flying the 190, but also of total E state...if relative E states aren't going to change, then make moves that help your total E state instead of lowering it. You will stay the same with your enemy, but increase your E state and safetey margin compared to everyone else. Sustained climb rate is in the D9's favor, but again remember the step-climb, this is particularly effective against the spitfire. Be cautioned way up high though...the spit really did have a great high altitude climb and the D9 is still not the best high altitude performer. Since the spit has had it's E retention tuned, it doesn't appear to be the high altitude nightmare that it used to be, which appears much more realistic imho.



    As far as the Anton being good for only hit and run, I'd say that is probably not true but that the Anton is not nearly as effective as the D9 for 1 on 1 energy fighting. It's used best in groups of 2 or 3 where no single 190 has to deal with an enemy all by itself. The D9 on the other hand can tackle probably any fighter one on one with very few exceptions...it has the performance to do it, but requires extensive knowledge of the fine points of the D9 to be successful in. The thing about the D9 is that the more you understand energy, the better you will do with it. This is why I like it...I can get really good results in the Dora if I use my head and fly intelligently and when flown in this manner it can do some surprising things. Other planes might be easier to fly, more successful and even more fun, but there is no other plane than can match the D9 in terms of sheer sense of accomplishment when flown well. Some people like a challenge and thats why we fly the 190's and planes like the P47. These planes are not uber but they reward mastery of them with good peformance and a high level of satisfaction as well as perplexed looks from the other guy who wonders 'how'd he do that?'.

    All in all I'd say your assessment of the series is on target and coincides with my experience as well. And yes, the 190's are cool


    <S> Hope this helps
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  4. #4
    Nice post Zen S!


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  5. #5
    Nice post Zen how I wonder do you keep all that in yuor head
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  6. #6
    Hehe...ask and Ye shall receive.
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  7. #7
    Thanks a lot Zen, this REALLY helps, appreciate it
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  8. #8
    Zen--'s Avatar Senior Member
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    I try

    Hoping that Fehler, Hunde, Robban and the rest of the gang will hop in, by no means would I claim to have all the answers. One of the best things about being a 190 pilot is the strong community out there, small maybe compared to other kinds but we stick together and have good comraderie.



    <S>
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  9. #9
    "One of the best things about being a 190 pilot is the strong community out there, small maybe compared to other kinds but we stick together and have good comraderie."

    Good stuff Zen, and I agree.

    I'll try to post something later and look things over, right now I am running on fumes....must sleep.....sorry......zzzzz.
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  10. #10
    Fehler's Avatar Senior Member
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    If I may chime in...

    The D-9 is da bomb! (Even though it cant carry any in FB+AEP+PF...




    Zen hit all the high points. The most important thing about flying a FW is to make smooth movements. Dont jerk the stick around or you will bleed E faster than you can say "Shot down."
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