1. #1
    robban75's Avatar Senior Member
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    Hello Mr. Maddox!

    This is nothing new, as it has been around for as long as I can remember. But it's probably more appearant now because the AI is fighting much more at high speed in 4.02(which is great!).

    Fighting against the AI is fun, except for one thing. The AI doesn't suffer from heavy ailerons. I'm guessing I'm not the only one who's been outrolled by a Spitfire at 800km/h IAS in a Mustang or Fw 190. 180deg/sec roll rates seems to be avaliable to the AI throughout the flight envelope.
    This means that the AI cannot be outmanouvered at high speed, nor can one hope to manouver with it.

    Can this be fixed? It would be great!

    Thanks!
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  2. #2
    robban75's Avatar Senior Member
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    Hello Mr. Maddox!

    This is nothing new, as it has been around for as long as I can remember. But it's probably more appearant now because the AI is fighting much more at high speed in 4.02(which is great!).

    Fighting against the AI is fun, except for one thing. The AI doesn't suffer from heavy ailerons. I'm guessing I'm not the only one who's been outrolled by a Spitfire at 800km/h IAS in a Mustang or Fw 190. 180deg/sec roll rates seems to be avaliable to the AI throughout the flight envelope.
    This means that the AI cannot be outmanouvered at high speed, nor can one hope to manouver with it.

    Can this be fixed? It would be great!

    Thanks!
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  3. #3
    Kwiatos's Avatar Senior Member
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    Yea i found the same AI have too good roll rate at high speed no metter of plane.
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  4. #4
    Yes, Robban is definitely right !

    That would be cool if AI rolling rate was realistic in this sim! We would like our Fw more!

    I want that to change too! Hope Oleg will read his post!
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  5. #5
    Kwiatos's Avatar Senior Member
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    I think Oleg dont care too much FB yet - dont see any his post for long time.
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  6. #6
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kwiatos:
    I think Oleg dont care too much FB yet - dont see any his post for long time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Not having time does not mean he does not care for it.
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  7. #7
    AKA_TAGERT's Avatar Banned
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by robban75:
    Hello Mr. Maddox!

    This is nothing new, as it has been around for as long as I can remember. But it's probably more appearant now because the AI is fighting much more at high speed in 4.02(which is great!).

    Fighting against the AI is fun, except for one thing. The AI doesn't suffer from heavy ailerons. I'm guessing I'm not the only one who's been outrolled by a Spitfire at 800km/h IAS in a Mustang or Fw 190. 180deg/sec roll rates seems to be avaliable to the AI throughout the flight envelope.
    This means that the AI cannot be outmanouvered at high speed, nor can one hope to manouver with it.

    Can this be fixed? It would be great!

    Thanks! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
    It's not that the AI can outmanouver real people. Real people can out manuver the Fw190 at high speeds too.

    The problem is with the roll-rates. The in-game Fw190 has one of the highest, if not the highest roll rate in the game, but, the problem is it happens at a much lower speed than it did in real life.

    Note here is a graph of the real life roll rates.


    And here is a graph of the in-game roll rates for the same (almost) planes.


    As you can see, the roll rate for the Fw190 is the fastest, but note it happens at a much lower speed (~195mph vs. ~260mph). But that is not the worst part, note that in the real life roll rates the Fw190 maintains it's advantage from ~260mph out to ~360mph, i.e. the HIGH SPEED ZONE your talking about. But, that is NOT the case for the in-game Fw190! Note that the P40E has an advantage over the Fw190 from ~250 onward, and the P51B has an advantage over the Fw190 from ~270 onwards. That is the area where the real life Fw190 had it's advantage, and in-game it does not have an advantage.

    So, what your seeing is not an AI error, it is a roll rate error. The only way to take advantage of the Fw190s high roll rates is to fly slow.. i.e. ~190mph, if you fly fast in-game, your advantage is gone.
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  8. #8
    RocketDog's Avatar Banned
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    Nicely explained TAGERT.

    Do you know if there is any indication that this is in line for a fix in a future patch, or are we stuck with it?

    In fact, do you know if this error cropped up in the new FM, or has it always been in the game?

    Cheers,

    RocketDog.
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  9. #9
    AKA_TAGERT's Avatar Banned
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RocketDog:
    Nicely explained TAGERT. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Thanks! If you€re interested in the full write up you can find it here

    AIRWARFARE.COM

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RocketDog:
    Do you know if there is any indication that this is in line for a fix in a future patch, or are we stuck with it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>They have not even acknowledged that it is a bug, thus I doubt there will be a fix. But, than again, if they did, it wouldn€t be the first time they tweaked/fixed something without any prior indication. So we can keep our fingers crossed.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RocketDog:
    In fact, do you know if this error cropped up in the new FM, or has it always been in the game? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>That I don€t know, in that I never tested the RR in older versions of the game.
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  10. #10
    If you take a look at the mere shape of the graphs, you'll probably come to conclusion that the bug is quite deeply embedded in the flight model. Basically all planes have wrong roll rates, they peak at wrong speeds etc etc. So i doubt it will be fixed. FW really suffers from this, but so does the P47, it's roll at high speed is pathetic, and for plane that is supposed to count on B&Z, this is really a bad handicap. But... I'm afraid we'll just have to live with it.

    The probelm is however that AI has rediculously high roll rate at high speeds regardles the plane. Look at their evasions, when they start rolling. They go towards the ground and at 700kmh start rolling with for example 109 5 times better than human 190 can. It's quite irritating. Also I got the feeling that they retain energy in these barrel rolls much better than they should. i did no tests, but it seems wrong, one would expect a plane to rapidly lose speed that way, and fighting human opponents made me think so, but they don't. I guess this might be fixed, as it's AI and not strictly FM related.
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