1. #1
    DKoor's Avatar Senior Member
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    IMO prohibition of vulching, shoulder-shooting and "kill-steal" belongs in the same category with prohibition of BnZ.
    It doesn't really matter how accustomed rule is.

    They all serve one primary purpose; to give a "non-realistic" chance to opposite side, or implement some sort of "chivalry" or something like that in the game (as being secondary objective), and thus... gaming the game really. Those things didn't happen in WW2 for the most part. Several pilot accounts I read speak in favor of that ("...use every advantage you have against Hun..." citation of one US ace comes to mind).

    What is or what isn't being "realistic" in a PC computer game, is another matter.

    The last course of actions on servers provided us with some food for thought (but it really started a long, long time ago, and these guys with new "rules" soaked up heavy flak - quite un-rightfully so, if I may add). And while everyone has a right to make a server (rules) on his/her liking, that doesn't mean we can't disagree (or agree for that matter) with that... much less discuss about it. I see nothing wrong with that...

    Maybe such servers with all this rules are for less experienced players, but then again; an experienced player will always come out on top, no matter what the rules are, no?
    In fact, I can easily see those experienced ones taking the most advantage of such "rules" .

    Also, while online dogfight servers seems to have most online population, I wonder what would happen if dev team and community as a whole payed more attention to COOP form, thing that is closest to the WW2 combat in this game. Also I wonder, would the majority play the COOP's if they were made better, easier to do.
    Something like 102nd_COOP_ded @ HL... they run COOP's in a form of online DF, made available thru the brilliant ideas of a few people... no rules there, except of those natural ones - comprehended by any online "pilot" who went into a regular elementary school .
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  2. #2
    DKoor's Avatar Senior Member
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    IMO prohibition of vulching, shoulder-shooting and "kill-steal" belongs in the same category with prohibition of BnZ.
    It doesn't really matter how accustomed rule is.

    They all serve one primary purpose; to give a "non-realistic" chance to opposite side, or implement some sort of "chivalry" or something like that in the game (as being secondary objective), and thus... gaming the game really. Those things didn't happen in WW2 for the most part. Several pilot accounts I read speak in favor of that ("...use every advantage you have against Hun..." citation of one US ace comes to mind).

    What is or what isn't being "realistic" in a PC computer game, is another matter.

    The last course of actions on servers provided us with some food for thought (but it really started a long, long time ago, and these guys with new "rules" soaked up heavy flak - quite un-rightfully so, if I may add). And while everyone has a right to make a server (rules) on his/her liking, that doesn't mean we can't disagree (or agree for that matter) with that... much less discuss about it. I see nothing wrong with that...

    Maybe such servers with all this rules are for less experienced players, but then again; an experienced player will always come out on top, no matter what the rules are, no?
    In fact, I can easily see those experienced ones taking the most advantage of such "rules" .

    Also, while online dogfight servers seems to have most online population, I wonder what would happen if dev team and community as a whole payed more attention to COOP form, thing that is closest to the WW2 combat in this game. Also I wonder, would the majority play the COOP's if they were made better, easier to do.
    Something like 102nd_COOP_ded @ HL... they run COOP's in a form of online DF, made available thru the brilliant ideas of a few people... no rules there, except of those natural ones - comprehended by any online "pilot" who went into a regular elementary school .
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  3. #3
    Xiolablu3's Avatar Senior Member
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    ABout vulching rules, they are needed on some servers, particularly those which allow padlock or wonderwoman view. Otherwise pilots can sit above an airfieled tapping f6 until a plane spawns and then shoot it up immediatley. Totally unrealistic and no fault of the spawning pilot.

    Bases were not so close togther in real life.

    There was far far more flak IRL, attacking airbases far far far more dangerous.

    Ita case of making poeple fly half an hour to 6 hours to the target or having vulching rules.

    I know which I would rather have.
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  4. #4
    DKoor's Avatar Senior Member
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
    ABout vulching rules, they are needed on some servers, particularly those which allow padlock or wonderwoman view. Otherwise pilots can sit above an airfieled tapping f6 until a plane spawns and then shoot it up immediatley. Totally unrealistic and no fault of the spawning pilot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>What happened to the AA on those servers?
    Guys went for a beer round or...?

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  5. #5
    DKoor's Avatar Senior Member
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    On a more serious note, AA in this game is so effective that when you set up good positioned 20mm and 88mm (or so, newer 37mm models are true killers too) flak batteries it's a true miracle if you make one pass over enemy field without taking some hits.
    Let alone, circling low on low/medium speed and picking your bandits.
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  6. #6
    Xiolablu3's Avatar Senior Member
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
    ABout vulching rules, they are needed on some servers, particularly those which allow padlock or wonderwoman view. Otherwise pilots can sit above an airfieled tapping f6 until a plane spawns and then shoot it up immediatley. Totally unrealistic and no fault of the spawning pilot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>What happened to the AA on those servers?
    Guys went for a beer round or...?

    </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    AAA has to be toned down otherwise people get a lot of lag.

    I know in map makers forums they have a strict limit on the amount of AAA in one place, so as not to cause lag.
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  7. #7
    Xiolablu3's Avatar Senior Member
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
    On a more serious note, AA in this game is so effective that when you set up good positioned 20mm and 88mm (or so, newer 37mm models are true killers too) flak batteries it's a true miracle if you make one pass over enemy field without taking some hits.
    Let alone, circling low on low/medium speed and picking your bandits. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    No way, in that case one single fighter can take out the first 37mm or 88 with a small bomb, then shoot up the other, and he has free reign to sit above the airfield picking off spawners.

    A squad of 2 or more fighters would be able to cause havoc at that airfield and ruin the game.

    Its like allowing unlimited spawncamping in FPS. If you joined a server and each time you spawned you were shot with no chance to fight back, would you keep spawning.playing?
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  8. #8
    DKoor's Avatar Senior Member
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    Now you see...

    BnZ is the same thing.
    It's just a variation of what you described.

    Even worse; there is no AA that protects aircraft on 1,500m from high speed attack of E/A... from let's say - 4,000m.
    He just waits in the airfield vicinity with his buddies and stalk...

    And 2 or more such "vulchers" can effectively ruin the game too, especially if they take FW-190D, J2M5 or similar fighters which can retain speed in (zoom)climb exceptionally and have outstanding speed.

    A fair fight?

    Don't think so.

    Like I say, experienced player will always take more advantage of any rule simply because he understands game better.

    And if you have only inexperienced it doesn't really matter anyway.
    They can lose a fight from an absolute position.
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  9. #9
    DKoor's Avatar Senior Member
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
    Its like allowing unlimited spawncamping in FPS. If you joined a server and each time you spawned you were shot with no chance to fight back, would you keep spawning.playing? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Mate while it has some similarities it is not really comparable, you must see that.
    All it takes for a sniper FPS'er to kill you is a small move of a mouse and left click.
    That can last three seconds or less if we are talking of FPS ace.

    The only way someone can kill you in IL2 in 3 sec. after you spawn is if you spawn right in front of his flight path at 800m distance (or so) and that he doesn't need to adjust course at all, he only need to press the trigger.

    Of course you can always hit refly and wait for AA to chew him up.

    Also, related to it, dead AA eventually respawns on airfields, no?

    Also there is usually at least two bases on DF online maps... there is an option to simply switch the bases . They can't camp everywhere in numbers.
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  10. #10
    Von_Rat's Avatar Senior Member
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">shoulder-shooting and "kill-steal" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


    these rules just make up for the lack of military disapline and comunication that a real airforce has.


    irl im sure shooting over the shoulder of your flight lead, or even shooting him up, without warning him would get you reprimanded. just like it does on servers with shoulder shooting rules.

    on servers where there are mature players and almost everyone is on teamspeak these rules arent really necessary. theyre only there for the new comers you arent on ts. guys who are on ts tend to cooperate and theres rarely a issue with kill stealing or shoulder shooting.

    note; on the more realistic servers all forms of vulching are allowed. chute shooting isnt against the rules where i fly either, but it is frowned upon. much like real life.
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