1. #11
    DKoor's Avatar Senior Member
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    My honest opinion is that no rule will really prevent people from doing dangerous stuff to their own mates online.
    Maybe I have a loose definition of shoulder shooting but to me, shoulder shooting is of course shooting from dead 6 "thru" our friend who is closer to bandit, also on dead 6. But.
    From my own point of view this is also a shoulder shooting;



    Because I feel that the fighter on dead 6 somehow "deserves" the kill more especially if he fought with E/A for that position, and I'm only jumping him from above without previous engagement.
    While in reality... he would probably get blasted by both aircraft.
    That is especially true if we are talking about bomber as target.

    IRL for instance Luftwaffe employed simultaneous group gang-bang as their tactic vs one US bomber, and with some success if I may add.
    Their heavy armored FW-190 fighters ("stürmbock", I believe) got close in and formed line and would just make a pass (usually from behind) on one B-17, and if the pass was successful bomber was usually put out of action.
    I remember reading how one FW-190 pilot said that if you are unlucky you would end up being on the border of that formation line, so sometimes there simply wasn't enough space for you to get a shot on B-17, as the line was wider than B-17 wingspan.

    Some variations like joining the furball in the first place while you see that you mate have a clear advantage and that he will sure emerge victorious from the low-level twitching is not even worth mentioning.

    And you see that online constantly on all servers ("realistic" and "airquake" like).
    That is also as bad as shoulder-shooting if not even worse, because by joining that fight you have effectively lost one fighter with potentially good E state and perhaps risk being jumped by approaching enemy fighters...

    Etc. etc., list of such wrong moves online is huge and they are all just as bad as good old plain dead 6 shoulder-shoot Mk.I.

    IMHO.
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  2. #12
    VW-IceFire's Avatar Senior Member
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    I'm not sure if its fair to lump all of those together DKoor. Vulching is all well and great and I've had fun with it and seen it be disastrous. If the intention is to have a dogfight server with short distances between bases then the vulching becomes a problem plus its not quite as sporting. You can pile on realistic amounts of flak but then lag would be a problem. So the substitute is just to say...don't shoot people on the ground. In the air anything goes.

    In a more realistic server where the distances are large I'd say absolutely shoot the guy on the ground no problem. If you want to get away with that its much more difficult to get past the CAP and the flak and still fly all the way back afterwards.

    Banning "boom and zoom" is different in that its difficult to define and can naturally flow from boom and zoom to turn and burn (not that you'd want it to). Its not as simple as saying don't shoot the guy on the ground. There's a definite state change between "on ground" and "in air". Easy to distinguish.

    Shoulder shooting is harder to deal with and more loose but there are definitely some folks who are just out their to get kills and are happy to ram their fellow pilots without any regard. Its nice to have an out in the rules for someone who is that annoying. Its a bit more specific than "be a good team player".

    I love COOPs but I don't see people running them much any more and the quality of the few that I've been in more recently have been decided sub par. Totally a-historical plane sets with the advantage clearly given to the side the host is on in one or two cases. Some of the others were more fun but not quite as fun.

    I used to remember some fantastic ones with bomber escorts at high altitude and any of the VFC COOP scenarios were good fun one way or another. Everyone was jovial and there was a fair bit of effort to being team players. Now everyone flies off on their own, ignores the wing leader, ignores everyone...gets lost...can't find anyone and leaves the server.

    Sorry I'm rambling but thats how I feel on these things.
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  3. #13
    DKoor's Avatar Senior Member
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
    I used to remember some fantastic ones with bomber escorts at high altitude and any of the VFC COOP scenarios were good fun one way or another. Everyone was jovial and there was a fair bit of effort to being team players. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>VFC was my best online DF server experience to date.
    Excellent server with a lot of good folks, a fair number of them frequented UBi forums back then, so it was nice to see them online.
    *
    About vulching... I've expressed my opinion. I don't care really - I know I would be able to deal with vulchers this or that way, there is always a way. Banning that was instituted simply because of newbie players who seem to have issues with switching bases, or taking some extra nimble fighters like I-153 and thus avoid being destroyed by BnZ or taking off in great numbers so they cannot all get hit in one pass, taking a bomber and fire from turret at E/A or whatever else works there...

    It's a challenge really.

    As much as is evading BnZ pass while you're flying at altitude.

    Some of folks may disagree with me, but BnZ is simply "honorable" as a pass on fighter that takes off. It's not exactly the same thing, vulcher has greater chances to destroy his victim, but "honor" is same... that is of course, if someone really cares for "honor" anyway.
    Great chances that BnZer/vulcher will destroy him & 0% chances for BnZer/vulcher to get killed. Literally.
    And if he's got a buddy with him victim can not fight them at all, it must constantly run until destroyed or until it receives some help from its buddies.

    There is really much "honor" in that .

    Sorry for a little irony... obviously I disagree with some of you guys.
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  4. #14
    You could always bail, Dkoor, we BnZers just want the plane.
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  5. #15
    DKoor's Avatar Senior Member
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Col.BBQ:
    You could always bail, Dkoor, we BnZers just want the plane. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>...says a Col.BBQ, BnZer to DKoor, another (avid) BnZer...

    I just wonder where did you pick up idea that I don't implement this tactic everytime I can?
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  6. #16
    Sorry, got the wrong vibe from your last post regarding BnZ as honorable as vulching.
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  7. #17
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
    IMO prohibition of vulching, shoulder-shooting and "kill-steal" belongs in the same category with prohibition of BnZ.
    It doesn't really matter how accustomed rule is.

    . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Totally disagree here.

    The BnZ rule is VERY different from more straight forward rules such as `no vulching, no-shoulder shooting or kill stealing`.

    What you are doing is trying to muddy the waters by comparing EVERy sensible rule to the BnZ rule.

    Of course, no one should shoulder shoot and good pilots will not take away a team m8s kill without prior communication, but it`s not comparable.

    In real life, a pilot might accidentally (or on purpose) shoulder shoot over a friend. He can be warned by orders not to do it again. NO ONE can tell the OTHERSIDE "You are not allowed to B&Z!"

    As for vulching and chute shooting, I believe they should be allowed in a server (since it`s realistic), but it can also be seen why this rule is made. Blowing away a guy on the ground is unfair and takes away from the fighting in the air. Shooting a guy in his chute also seems unfair and many cases more of a subjective act than an act of any real usefulness. They are also reasonable rules that are reasonable to enforce.

    Also and what you are missing the most, these rules do not PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED particular aircraft`s abilities. Abilities they were designed for. The `No B&Z` rule is similar to telling dolphins that they cannot swim in water and must struggle on dry land.
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  8. #18
    Bearcat99's Avatar Senior Member
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    I say instead of crying about such things server admins should do things like:

    1. If you are on this server be on this server's comms. Unless you do not have a mike.

    2. Encourage things like teamwork, someone flying cap over the base.. etc.

    3. I know that too much AAA can cause lag.. but there has o be some kind of sweet spot between none at all and too much... even if it comes down to spacing it out a bit.. so that even approaching a base can cause problems.

    4. I always repawn at another base when the vulching is too hot..

    5. Space the bases far enough apart so that pilots have the time to gain altitude.

    Thats one reason why I just prefer coops with people I know.. less BS.. more fun.
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  9. #19
    DKoor's Avatar Senior Member
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
    IMO prohibition of vulching, shoulder-shooting and "kill-steal" belongs in the same category with prohibition of BnZ.
    It doesn't really matter how accustomed rule is.

    . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Totally disagree here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>It's your right to disagree. But let's see just where exactly do you disagree...

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The BnZ rule is VERY different from more straight forward rules such as `no vulching, no-shoulder shooting or kill stealing`. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>It sure is.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What you are doing is trying to muddy the waters by comparing EVERY sensible rule to the BnZ rule. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Every sensible rule?
    You call "no vulching" sensible? Sensible where and to whom? To Winnie the Pooh in the Toyland?

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Of course, no one should shoulder shoot and good pilots will not take away a team m8s kill without prior communication, but it`s not comparable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Shoulder shoot is not really a rule it's a common sense that needed to be written because of people which are really, really rude. Or others who are just gaming the game, they're outhere just for a points and their personal amusement over everything else.
    Believe me, even so they cannot really comprehend that "rule" because I see that kind of stuff online everywhere almost at regular basis.

    This issue is very close related to the KS (kill steal) rules, but that is another matter.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In real life, a pilot might accidentally (or on purpose) shoulder shoot over a friend. He can be warned by orders not to do it again. NO ONE can tell the OTHERSIDE "You are not allowed to B&Z!" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree, every type of action where a friendly aircraft may actually get hit is out of question.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As for vulching and chute shooting, I believe they should be allowed in a server (since it`s realistic), but it can also be seen why this rule is made. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree here. 100%. If you are to play the game like you are supposed to, goal is to kill enemy in any form.
    Other realities may exist only in UBi ToyLand.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Blowing away a guy on the ground is unfair and takes away from the fighting in the air. Shooting a guy in his chute also seems unfair and many cases more of a subjective act than an act of any real usefulness. They are also reasonable rules that are reasonable to enforce. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You see... what people don't really get is that IRL -a popular phrase often spoken of here- vulching was so "popular" in WW2 that they did it every time they could. And while doing so, they constantly invented new dedicated weapons and aircraft which will excel in this...
    Attacking enemy airfields was no different. No matter how close their bases were.

    So when we have a vulch ban, we are... one step closer to reality or one step closer to a Toyland?

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Also and what you are missing the most, these rules do not PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED particular aircraft`s abilities. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>It didn't occured to you that most succesfull players of IL2 always engage from above i.e. always BnZ their victims? It doesn't really matter which aircraft they fly...?

    Anyhow... it is just a rule flashing with sensibility among other so called sensible rules.
    At this point, we may discuss whether it is or it is not the most controversial rule...

    You can expect everything.
    And this particular rule basically handicapped every single aircraft not just particular aircraft.
    Every regular good IL2 player always, absolutely always seek to have an altitude advantage prior to engagement. Be it a Spitfire pilot, Bf-109, FW-190 one etc.
    They know they wont last long without some sort of advantage, especially altitude one, so...
    Arguably, I intentionally say arguably, some aircraft may be affected more some less. But usually aircraft that are more affected are the ones which usually happen to be really fast so it can be nullified to an extent thru this.
    As I personally witnessed thru my yesterday's sortie on HeadHunters server (one which banned BnZ tactic). I never climbed above 2,000m and I managed to destroy 4 E/A in my first FW sortie.
    Once when I picked up speed in shallow dive, I just extended in all directions while friendlies on my side helped each other... etc. etc.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Abilities they were designed for. The `No B&Z` rule is similar to telling dolphins that they cannot swim in water and must struggle on dry land. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree 100%.
    But I cannot stress enough that applies to every single aircraft in the game, as their pilots will all (good ones) always seek an altitude advantage over their enemy.

    Once in inferior position (lower altitude) player in IL2 is a target.
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  10. #20
    DKoor's Avatar Senior Member
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
    I say instead of crying about such things server admins should do things like:

    1. If you are on this server be on this server's comms. Unless you do not have a mike.

    2. Encourage things like teamwork, someone flying cap over the base.. etc.

    3. I know that too much AAA can cause lag.. but there has o be some kind of sweet spot between none at all and too much... even if it comes down to spacing it out a bit.. so that even approaching a base can cause problems.

    4. I always repawn at another base when the vulching is too hot..

    5. Space the bases far enough apart so that pilots have the time to gain altitude.

    Thats one reason why I just prefer coops with people I know.. less BS.. more fun. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>+10^10!

    Several good points here.
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