1. #1
    is there too less dispersion in bomber gunner guns?

    now, its mostly like sniping guns no matter if gun is pointed out with mucsle force,. just check movie battle of britain and membhis belle, on those films gunners are using real guns, check how guns are making recoil, how guns are jumpin in their hands with their hands and body, can that be as accuraet shooting as we got in game? Guns are aimed with muscle power, and, if gun can be moved inside airplane, doenst that mean, that also RECOIL can move the gun, as well that is seen in movies where they use real guns.

    AI and human in game, have unrealicic advantages against Fighter pilots. one is gun accuracy, in all bombers, i would say that heavy machinegun would disperse even mount, if guns not attached on engined mounts, which if so, should be traversed with stick, not with mouse then

    if gun is hand held, like rear gunners in most bombers, where gun is aimer with muscle force only, should there be much more disperse.

    now, its like laser gunz. can shoot accuratelly at distances, and keep that fire concengradd on small area. and, why is light machineguns having bigger dispersion than heavy ones? wind affecting so much?

    i would see heavy machinegun, in T 72 tower as in AAA mount, shot as accuratelly on constant auto fire as can be shot with light machinegun with support legs. in game, its vice versa. so, i call, not realistic.

    i would like somekind of inertia to get in Gunner positions where guns are based on muscle aimin.
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  2. #2
    is there too less dispersion in bomber gunner guns?

    now, its mostly like sniping guns no matter if gun is pointed out with mucsle force,. just check movie battle of britain and membhis belle, on those films gunners are using real guns, check how guns are making recoil, how guns are jumpin in their hands with their hands and body, can that be as accuraet shooting as we got in game? Guns are aimed with muscle power, and, if gun can be moved inside airplane, doenst that mean, that also RECOIL can move the gun, as well that is seen in movies where they use real guns.

    AI and human in game, have unrealicic advantages against Fighter pilots. one is gun accuracy, in all bombers, i would say that heavy machinegun would disperse even mount, if guns not attached on engined mounts, which if so, should be traversed with stick, not with mouse then

    if gun is hand held, like rear gunners in most bombers, where gun is aimer with muscle force only, should there be much more disperse.

    now, its like laser gunz. can shoot accuratelly at distances, and keep that fire concengradd on small area. and, why is light machineguns having bigger dispersion than heavy ones? wind affecting so much?

    i would see heavy machinegun, in T 72 tower as in AAA mount, shot as accuratelly on constant auto fire as can be shot with light machinegun with support legs. in game, its vice versa. so, i call, not realistic.

    i would like somekind of inertia to get in Gunner positions where guns are based on muscle aimin.
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  3. #3
    p1ngu666's Avatar Senior Member
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    id like unsynced turret guns
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  4. #4
    F19_Olli72's Avatar Senior Member
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    Id like not my plane to crash cos theres noone to fly the plane if I get killed as a gunner.
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  5. #5
    hehehe

    Its more funnier when you are gunner and you pilot gets shot, you cant bail out, hahahaha happened to me on wc.
    I was in Ju88 and some plane at my six, so i manned the reargunner and bam got message pilot is killed ,lol you can't fly but you still can control the flaps, so i hit bail out. UH UH that didnt work

    regards
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  6. #6
    blakduk's Avatar Senior Member
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    Before i played any of the Il2 series i too believed that unescorted bombers were easy kills. Many previous flight sims i had mastered confirmed this belief for me. In Il2 however I was shocked to find that cruising to within an easy killing range of a bomber meant i got shot A LOT by the gunners. What i have since learned is that in fact a lot of fighters were crippled by relatively lightly armed bombers in WW2.
    I have just finished the excellent account of the BOB 'The Most Dangerous Enemy'. It makes mention of the number of fighters that were hit and had to disengage due to defensive fire from such medium bombers as the He111. It also describes the often appalling inefficiency of the British fighters who were trying to finish off bomber formations that had lost their escorts.
    Such accounts have turned my thinking around- experience of the game and accounts i have read of the real battles now make me believe that Oleg has it about right. The graphics may not appear to be exactly accurate but i believe accuracy of their fire and the damage they inflict is.
    Keep the key factors in play- maintain speed, dont fly straight, hit hard and run!
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  7. #7
    blakduk's Avatar Senior Member
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    Stafroty <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">if gun is hand held, like rear gunners in most bombers, where gun is aimer with muscle force only, should there be much more disperse. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The key there is the gun is 'aimed' with muscle force only. Some of the most famous footage of gunners in air combat is from a B17 crew flying over europe- they are standing at the open sides of the plane shooting MG's that are held in placeby a single point. The guns are bucking wildly and the floor is strewn with casings. The reason they were filmed in action was because they could be- the camerman could stand next to them and see what they were doing. It was a lot more dramatic as well as visually interesting to watch them at work. It wasnt possible to stand outside and watch what the turret gunners were doing.
    Those mounts were quite unusual, most times the guns were held in much more secure mounts. Heavy bomber often had them in pairs (or fours) within a turret, which was held by hydraulics. These guns were well balanced and quite stable. You see very little gun-camera footage of fighters lining up for a hit from dead astern unless its from a 262 that has an incredible speed advantage. Most attacks were slashing manouvures that got through the barrage of fire as quickly as possible.
    Also the gunners were well trained, they weren't just sent up to act as ballast.
    Even crippled bombers that were out of formation had to be attacked with due regard for their defensive fire.
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  8. #8
    p1ngu666's Avatar Senior Member
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    waist gunners where the least effective, due to the gunmounts, but mostly because of how hard it is to deflection shoot and it is ingame.

    turret guns where much better.

    i very rarely use the waist guns on the b25 and he111, the ju88 doesnt have any..
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  9. #9
    horseback's Avatar Senior Member
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by blakduk:
    Before i played any of the Il2 series i too believed that unescorted bombers were easy kills. Many previous flight sims i had mastered confirmed this belief for me. In Il2 however I was shocked to find that cruising to within an easy killing range of a bomber meant i got shot A LOT by the gunners. What i have since learned is that in fact a lot of fighters were crippled by relatively lightly armed bombers in WW2.
    I have just finished the excellent account of the BOB 'The Most Dangerous Enemy'. It makes mention of the number of fighters that were hit and had to disengage due to defensive fire from such medium bombers as the He111. It also describes the often appalling inefficiency of the British fighters who were trying to finish off bomber formations that had lost their escorts.
    Such accounts have turned my thinking around- experience of the game and accounts i have read of the real battles now make me believe that Oleg has it about right. The graphics may not appear to be exactly accurate but i believe accuracy of their fire and the damage they inflict is.
    Keep the key factors in play- maintain speed, dont fly straight, hit hard and run! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Most RAF squadrons used a series of standard attacks, as predictable as the sunrise for much of the BoB, well known to the Germans by the time they started hitting England proper. Most involved approaching at a relatively small angle from the rear at a slow rate of closure, because the RAF had paid next to no attention to air to air gunnery in the years prior to the war, and the rifle caliber MGs they used had to be fired at very short ranges to have any effect...

    The survivors of the BoB learned a very bloody lesson as a result.

    HOWEVER, most of their casualties were the result of attacking formations which could provide mutual support and put up a hell of a lot of bullets in the general vicinity of an approaching fighter.

    Individual bombers and Me 110s were generally easy kills even from the rear, because an adequate fighter pilot could get his multiple guns to bear on the gunner's position more easily than the gunner could get his single MG to bear on the attacking aircraft.

    This is where this sim falls down; shooting down an aircraft from another aircraft with a machine gun on a flexible mount from an open cockpit is just damned hard, particularly when you have the whole tail of your aircraft sitting between you and your target.

    It's loud, you're always cold, you and your target are moving and bouncing around unpredictable ways, and you don't control your guns with a mouse...

    The ai are unfailingly aware of your exact position as soon as you reach the theoretical 'accurate range' of their guns, they are unaffected by the maneuvers and gyrations of their pilot as he tries to avoid your attack (to the point that I have been fatally hit by a gunner in a recently dewinged victim, who fired a burst at me every time he rotated until the bastage hit the ground).

    On top of that, the ai gunner is harder to kill than the Terminator, and about as easy to scare.

    cheers

    horseback
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  10. #10
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by blakduk:
    Stafroty <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">if gun is hand held, like rear gunners in most bombers, where gun is aimer with muscle force only, should there be much more disperse. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The key there is the gun is 'aimed' with muscle force only. Some of the most famous footage of gunners in air combat is from a B17 crew flying over europe- they are standing at the open sides of the plane shooting MG's that are held in placeby a single point. The guns are bucking wildly and the floor is strewn with casings. The reason they were filmed in action was because they could be- the camerman could stand next to them and see what they were doing. It was a lot more dramatic as well as visually interesting to watch them at work. It wasnt possible to stand outside and watch what the turret gunners were doing.
    Those mounts were quite unusual, most times the guns were held in much more secure mounts. Heavy bomber often had them in pairs (or fours) within a turret, which was held by hydraulics. These guns were well balanced and quite stable. You see very little gun-camera footage of fighters lining up for a hit from dead astern unless its from a 262 that has an incredible speed advantage. Most attacks were slashing manouvures that got through the barrage of fire as quickly as possible.
    Also the gunners were well trained, they weren't just sent up to act as ballast.
    Even crippled bombers that were out of formation had to be attacked with due regard for their defensive fire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


    why is the turrets operated with mouse? why isnt there any Shaking with the gunsights because man behind the gun is moving, in turret or no turret. no inertia or whatsoever with mouse aimed guns, its like FPS game, really.
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