View Poll Results: So?

43. You may not vote on this poll
  • Turn rate

    17 39.53%
  • Roll rate

    26 60.47%
  1. #1
    tigertalon's Avatar Senior Member
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    Mar 2003
    Yeah it depends greatly on what you'r flying (improving roll on 190 or turn rate on Ki-27 doesn't make much sense does it) but still, for general air combat, which one do you think is more important? Or, hypothetically, if a patch would be released that improves one of the two for, say 10%, for every flyable plane in game, which one'd you pick?

    My personal opinion is they are quite close in importance, even more important than turn rate probably is E-bleed rate during turning and the speed dependance of turn rate. For me almost a toss of a coin, still, in most of the occasions I would go for roll rate.

    With good roll rate one can roll out of sight of persuing enemy, with favourable bleed added it can outscissor better turning chasing opponent.
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  2. #2
    ploughman's Avatar Senior Member
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    Apr 2004
    Instantaneous turn.
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  3. #3
    Xiolablu3's Avatar Senior Member
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    Jan 2003
    I was watching a documentry today and they had a Supermarine engineer who was talking.

    He said they gave the Spitfire power assisted ailerons, and at that point they were talkign baout the MkVIII and MKIX. I had never heard that before? Which marks had these powered ailerons?

    Oh and about the poll, both can be put to good use. If I had the faster plane then I would pick roll rate, but in the slower plane I would pick turn rate. You MUST be able to outurn him if you cannot outrun him.
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  4. #4
    Well for me the answer is very simple.Turn rate for sure.IMO to use the roll rate effectively you must have experience and far greater flying skills.

    Now it`s obvious that as armchair pilot I know this only from a game.In this game,when my opponent used his roll was when he made scissors.Everytime if he got away from me was my fault because I could not hit a plane that was maneuvering left/right just in front of my gunsight.But hitting such an opponent is a lot easier than pulling an angle on a plane that forces you to pull excessive AoA in exchange for a CHANCE of hitting him.

    IMO a best plane is a plane that is a jack of all trades.The IL2 version of FW190 would have a huge advantage in roll IF it could pull a high angle fast turn,at high speed ofcourse.In IL2 you can`t do that because the plane shudders.If only FW190 had elevators of P51...

    Other side of the coin is that I never got to using Focke Wulf`s roll rate to its best potential.
    Like I said,the Spit gets on my six@460km/h,I make few fast changes of direction but can`t possibly pull even a second of an angle that would make him lose me from his sight,because this plane really does not accept any kind of hard stick movement(shudders,eventually snap stall).So after 5-6 scissors and rough turns I end up slow with a Spit still glued on my six waiting for his shells to pop me open.

    My opinion is that at least in this game,you can`t put a great roll rate into a good defensive use.

    I`d pick a 10% turn rate increase in a G6 above everything else.
    You see,in a 109 that has slats I do scissors and pull a high AoA and IMMEDIATELY the Spit falls in front of my gunsight.I can do that several times in a row and the Spit pilot gets a sweating shirt too.

    Because the 109 can do everything good.I can couple a few moves into one evil surprise on the Spit.In this case a good roll rate,even bad roll rate at high speeds does not cripple the 109.Heck,go fly the Lavochkin some time!Do you see its bad roll rate giving you problems?

    Summing up,as an armchair virtual pilot I do not even compare the value of better turn rate vs better roll rate.I doubt that roll rate is any kind of advantage at all.

    PS.Maybe I say this because what I really like in a plane,is defensive qualities.109 has good offensive and good defensive Qs.The Focke Wulf has huge offensive and no defensive Qs.
    For me a plane which can`t get out of trouble by itself is a pile of junk.
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  5. #5
    Xiolablu3's Avatar Senior Member
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    Jan 2003
    Interesting post Carguy.

    Try diving when you get a Spit on your tail in a FW190, I know a lot of people whine about dive speeds, but it works very well for me.

    The sooner you see him coming the better, but certainly as soon as I see tracer or hear hit I will flip over (fast roll rate) and dive. As I am in the dive I will keep altering roll a little so he cannot get a good lead on me, but I dont lose any speed from altering roll. If he is not really really close then you should escape.

    Of course this only works when you have altitude. I always try and keep around 3000m and if I go lower make sure that I am keeping very very fast. This way I can dive if I get into trouble.
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  6. #6
    I like planes that can do both good.

    But maybe roll rate is more important. Because roll rate can be used to "replace" turnrate.

    For example, a pilot who is diving vertically can use roll rate to change direction faster than the plane (even if it is a plane with a really fast turn rate) that is turning in a flat circle below him. Not only that, but the diving plane can also turn (roll) inside the other planes turn, with a much smaller turncircle.
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  7. #7
    Mustang - turns great at hi speed, rolls well at high speed. None better!
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  8. #8
    Viper2005_'s Avatar Senior Member
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    Oct 2005
    Roll rate doesn't matter. Turn rate doesn't matter.

    What matters is having an advantage over your opponent.

    If you give me a 10% advantage in turn rate then that's still an advantage.

    Even if I roll at 360º/s, I'm still at a disadvantage to an enemy capable of rolling at 400º/s.


    In the context of IL2 there are two turn regimes.

    High Speed
    Any speed above the 6 g corner speed is a high speed turn; instantaneous turn rate is limited by blackout rather than aerodynamics.

    Low Speed
    Any speed below the 6 g corner speed is a low speed turn; instantaneous turn rate is limited by aerodynamics rather than physiology.

    Now, in the high speed regime, I'm not interested in turn rate anymore; I've got that (unless perhaps I'm flying a 109 or something). Instead I'm after a reduced energy bleed.

    In the low speed regime, I'm after more turn rate as well as less energy bleed. That means more lift, as well as less drag.

    (I make no distinction between sustained and instantaneous turns because reality doesn't care if you're losing energy, gaining energy or maintaining the same energy state. It's often very hard to tell in a fight anyway; a few knots here, a few feet there and who knows?)

    Now, in the low speed regime, an improvement in turn rate generally implies more wing area (more lift) and more span (less induced drag). The flip side is that this new wing generally implies a reduced roll rate and a reduced top speed. Hence the traditional divide between the T&B fighter and the B&Z fighter.

    In the high speed regime the rules are different; since you've got all the lift you need, it's all about thrust & drag (and maybe elevator authority if you're in a 109). Improved high speed turn performance doesn't necessarily impact roll rate & level speed in the same way as low speed turn performance.

    Roll rate may be similarly divided into low speed & high speed regimes.

    High Speed
    Roll rate limited by pilot strength. Therefore improvements may be made by either reducing control forces or increasing pilot strength. Quite surprising improvements may be made by tweaking control surface design, especially the hinges.

    Low Speed
    Roll rate limited by control authority with full deflection. Improvements may most easily be made by making the control bigger, and possibly by reducing wing span.

    The distinction between the low & high speed regimes is important since in both cases the B&Z fighter should operate in the high speed regime, whilst the T&B fighter should operate in the low speed regime.

    Personally, I fly the Fw-190 more than anything else. I therefore live in the high speed regime and die in the low speed regime. Now, my first priority is performance in the high speed regime. But once I have a substantial advantage over my opponent, as I would do in speed & roll against a Hurricane for example, I'd rather have extra turn rate than extra speed or roll rate.

    In short, horses for courses. But overall, IMO speed is life, so I'd generally prefer roll rate to turn rate...
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  9. #9
    AKA_TAGERT's Avatar Banned
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    Dec 2005
    roll rate is relative

    Now say it 3 times fast
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  10. #10
    In real life you can't turn an aircraft unless you roll it first. The quicker you get into your roll, the sooner you'll turn.
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