1. #1
    Oleg:
    i have almost played this game two years.thank you for creating so great game.she give me so much happy time.but i think there has some problem on FM especially AC's behaving at low speed is abnormal.most plane in FB can make a easy perfect vertical loop with inital speed only 240~260 km/h ias ,if you gently hold back the joystick.do you think this is realistic?now this feature cause b&z tactic more difficult in this game.the b&zed plane can directly and simply stand on its tail at very low speed and making accurate shooting at the enemy plane which diving towards to it.i have read some book about WWII air combat lots article indicate that when the fighter climbs in very large angle at very low speed it keeps stuttering cause the accurate aiming to the target impossible.but i can not see it in this game.what do you think about this?sorry for my poor english.
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  2. #2
    Oleg:
    i have almost played this game two years.thank you for creating so great game.she give me so much happy time.but i think there has some problem on FM especially AC's behaving at low speed is abnormal.most plane in FB can make a easy perfect vertical loop with inital speed only 240~260 km/h ias ,if you gently hold back the joystick.do you think this is realistic?now this feature cause b&z tactic more difficult in this game.the b&zed plane can directly and simply stand on its tail at very low speed and making accurate shooting at the enemy plane which diving towards to it.i have read some book about WWII air combat lots article indicate that when the fighter climbs in very large angle at very low speed it keeps stuttering cause the accurate aiming to the target impossible.but i can not see it in this game.what do you think about this?sorry for my poor english.
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  3. #3
    It certainly has changed quite a bit since the original IL-2.

    In IL-2 flying the bf-109G, you would need around 300km/h in order to perform a loop without stalling. In FB, like you said, it is much less. Planes in general seem to keep their speed much longer while climbing, and lose much less energy at high AOA, in FB than in IL-2.

    It does seem kind of wonky that you keep all this energy in low speed manuevering, but that might just be because we are used to how it was in IL-2. I'd assume the flight dynamics would be changed to increase realism.

    But it is possible it was changed like that to make the game easier to play. I read a quote about the I-16, that it could "perform a loop with less than 300km/h airspeed", as though it were somehow special. But in FB any plane can do that, even the heaviest, most underpowered ones.

    Its too bad you never see WWII planes doing aerobatics, then we'd have more idea of how they should perform at high AOA, low speed.
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  4. #4
    Performing a loop, or performing a Immelmann? Or a tailslide or a hammerhead?

    Those are all different maneuvers, which I suspect you are loosley categorizing as a 'loop', which obviously, is not true.

    Can you do a nice, controlled loop with only 250km/h initial speed? I know I can't do that.

    What I can do is, however, coax my plane to nose straight up, and then fall under a controlled stall to immediately recover control as the low speed snaps the plane around and its nose points towards the ground - that's not a loop.

    Going straight vertical and stalling out of it, of course, is also much different from 'climbing at a high angle' and stalling out of that. Try it yourself - maintain something like a 60 degrees climb angle and see what happens. The plane destabilizes just as you said it should.

    Anything else than that, then the problem is simply you're not judging the relative E-states correctly. A vertical move which lets the enemy remain within gunnery range, is a failed move.

    ...

    Ofcourse, the frickin' 400~500 meter shots are annoying, yes. Not to mention that torque in FB planes are really weak, so coaxing your plane into a 90 degrees vertical is really easy. Couple that with the super-stable non-nose shaking VVS planes, and it is true to a certain extent shi* happens.

    There are times when the enemy just decides to open up some 600~700 meters behind you when you are dragging him up to rope him, and they still manage consecutive hits and knock out a control surface or something. Feh, you'll never see that happening with LW planes - you see them with the frickin' laser ShKAS, nose-mounted ShVAKs and UBS.

    But then again, as long as it is that way, all you have to do is simply maintain a larger margin of energy to ensure zoom sequences that are longer and faster. Again, it returns to the skill of the individual, rather than a FM fault.
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  5. #5
    yes it a loop not immelmann or hammerhead.i know what i am talking about.even lots plane can hang on prop at low speed for so long time good pilots also can carry out their B&Z tactics very successfly.but i am curious if that lowspeed aerobatic can be done in real life?i just want this game be more close to reality.
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  6. #6
    LEXX_Luthor's Avatar Senior Member
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>i know what i am talking about....i just want this game be more close to reality.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    HAHAHA you don't know how to write.

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  7. #7
    karost's Avatar Senior Member
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    Hi, HQ1

    You are not only one who feel like that ‚... me too

    FM in IL2 Sturmovik 1.2 is my most favor for me about spin and stall-speed drop when climb. To take off 109G2 with 500 kg bomb or IL-2 with full load is not easy I have to take care my air speed if I not patient I pull up my joystick too fast and then bommm‚...>I think you know what will happen , Oh and I remember p-39 for that time I was fell terrible for that plane about spin-stall , and I respect p-39 pilots that he can control p-39 batter then me.


    As your remembered when IL2 FB first version was release, I read many people post about FM ,it so easy like arcade game , I let the boy ( 9 years old ) take off IL2 with full load he take off the plane so easy


    My favor tactic at low speed in IL2- Sturmovik v1.2 I develop tactic to make a small turn at row level (200 m.) it look like climb vertical + ‚"U‚"Ě turn it same like ‚"hammerhead‚"Ě BF 109 G6 is very good for this tactic , at initial state I need speed at 300 km/h at 200 meter then I pull up 70-80 degree vertical when I reach at 500-600 meter my speed drop to 150 km/h then I roll right 90 degree then pull my joystick until I see the ground then release my joystick and let the plane‚'s nose drop by G force at this time my speed lower then 120 km/h and begin lose attitude I open take-off flap and roll left 90 degree to gently pull nose up ‚...I lose attitude fast .while my air speed come back I pull nose to level at 50 meter.

    If some one follow to shot me he will crash include my 109 friend who try to cover me too , I can‚'t remember his call sigh for my 109 friend but I still remember he said ( chat ) ‚.... ‚" If you turn like this .. again I will not cover you‚...‚"Ě LOL

    this tactic I spent more and more time to improve my skill because it‚'s not easy and danger, and I always fly at full real 80%( speed bar , icon friend ) to 100%

    For defensive state this tactic help me for success kill about 60-70 % which not loss any ammo , but I not use this tactic when I-16 or LaGG3 behind my 6



    Now.. in IL2-FB my old Ė tactic not work ! I have to reduce initial speed from 300 to 275 km/h when I pull up 70-80 degree the ‚"lose speed late‚"Ě very take more time, I have to reduce power and nose drop very low (stall reverse) , and G Ė speed drop also slow , ladder modeling responding for FM is not the same as I saw in WII air show in real world

    I know ‚"How to fly‚"Ě since I play EAW , I kow 109s is not good for level- turning tactic , Energy state tactic is a standard tactic for 109s


    By the way, I am not a real pilot so this is my personal idea , may be I wrong ‚... about FM ,may be a lot of friends around here improve their skill up to advance level ,
    And may be Modeling - FM in IL2FB is turning to the right place‚...



    Sorry for my bad English‚.....

    S!
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  8. #8
    You're absolutely right HQ1, the FM in FB is still far from realistic in the slow speed/high AOA sector. Energy bleed is low, most maneuvers (including vertical ones) need almost no initial speed to be performed, aircraft can yank and bank violently without big stall or spin problems - yes I know that aircraft can stall in FB but no real pilot would ever ride an aircraft right at the edge of the stall all day as you can do in FB, and that for a very good reason.
    The 190 or P47 still look most convincing as they actually bleed some E and can't simply start every maneuver from stall speed but the average performance in FB is rather arcade. Part of this is the lack of torque and gyro effects. What is meant by this has been mentioned often enough. At least some of these effects are modeled but so weak that they have no effect.
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  9. #9
    p1ngu666's Avatar Senior Member
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    the 190 and jug are really bad at low speed
    i know that
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  10. #10
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You're absolutely right HQ1, the FM in FB is still far from realistic in the slow speed/high AOA sector. Energy bleed is low, most maneuvers (including vertical ones) need almost no initial speed to be performed, aircraft can yank and bank violently without big stall or spin problems - yes I know that aircraft can stall in FB but no real pilot would ever ride an aircraft right at the edge of the stall all day as you can do in FB, and that for a very good reason.
    The 190 or P47 still look most convincing as they actually bleed some E and can't simply start every maneuver from stall speed but the average performance in FB is rather arcade. Part of this is the lack of torque and gyro effects. What is meant by this has been mentioned often enough. At least some of these effects are modeled but so weak that they have no effect.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Apparently, that's not what self-described combat pilots think, nor people who have (albeit) limited experiences in real life tail draggers matching close in performance to WW2 planes think.

    There's this assertion existing in the flight sim community that flying a plane is to be sadistically hard or takes something really special to do - which gives rise to the countless discussions on people so engaged in 'over-realism' - forced style of flight which is claimed to "feel more real" by people who for some reason, think flying is to be hard.

    Is it?

    WW2 pilots who start combat duties have less flying time than what an average gamer would fly in single week. Being good in a game doesn't mean that you'll be able to fly the real thing, but it does mean that the average gamer understands and learns much more about the dynamics of flight than real life pilots ever do.

    In rare events, there are some gamers who are hand-picked and invited to fly in actual military simulator platforms, who manage to take off and land in a 1:1 scale simulated military F-16 cockpit platform. Surely not all people who enjoy games can do that, but apparently they have, to a certain extent, what we can reasonably call "experience" - even though it is simulated.

    Flying has become easier than IL-2, that much is undeniable. But for some reason, people refuse to believe that it could be easy and natural to do.

    "No real pilot would ever ride an aircraft right at the edge of the stall all day as you can do in FB" - is it? Pilots who fail to learn to ride the edge, are pilots who are first to get shot down when danger takes form behind their six.

    So becareful about this 'arcade' accusation - especially when you do not have any actual proof. FB is not perfect. Some features are wrong, some features are fishy, and others are absent. But the features that exist, capture to a very satisfactory extent the correct feel of flight, at least, that's what the pilots I know say.
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