Senior Member
I think what they are talking about is modelling cone-fire along with the recoil. Cone fire is a artificial way to simulate weapon recoil so to combine them is to penalize the player twice.Originally posted by sx_amazing:
How can you compare RVS's recoil to CounterStrikes? Counterstrike practically has no recoil. RVS's recoil system kicks alot as you shoot and you need to know how to use your mouse to stabilize it. As for Counterstrike, you can stand there and shoot without moving your mouse down slightly to keep the reticule on target. Some players expect a game to accomodate their level of skill. Well, I don't. I prefer playing a game that has a competitive edge rather than everyone being equally good. What I like about RVS's recoil, despite being exaggerated, you have to learn how to move and practice with your mouse to learn the tricks of the trade. It is not luck-based, unless of course you are in a server with High Caps enabled. Very few servers have them enabled anyway. Servers without High Caps are more about shoot-outs opposed to servers that have them enabled where everyone runs around like Rambo.
Banned
the Rvs ret model/recoil is luck baised, there is no skill.
Its all about putting X amount of bullets in Y amount of Time with Z amount of luck.
the more bullets you put out in the least amout of seconds is all its about, look at the best weapon in game
the Famas (super high ROF) climbs to the ceiling in less than 5 seconds. All its about is saying ooh, i was able to point at him while fighting the screen from going up, not.... "I was able to counteract my gun from running away from the target and managed to landing my shots"
some people really need to get past this idealism that "Random" isn't = Skill or they need to realise it is random try spinning around with a DE .357 (or any other weapon with simi-auto) stop with the gun pointed right at the guys head standing next to you and see if it hits (with him standing right next to you) the bullet will miracusly miss with the gun's barrel dug into his temple, and hit the cieling, wall and any other thing the size of a BARN behind him it isnt about controll, its about luck and tricking you into thinking you are actually controlling the shots.
Senior Member
The big flaw which ALL the R6 series have had and continue to have in my, personal, opinion is this:
A) The current reticule/pip system penalizes the player for ALL types of movement and not just large ones, I.E. running, or sprinting long distances like it is supposed to.
The only exception was the bug in Rouge Spear where if you strafed side to side the game read sideways/horizontal movement as no movement at all and erroneously closed the rets to near perfect accuracy. It was commonly associated with the MP5K-PDW, but it was present for a good 80-90% of the weapons too because it was in fact a universal engine bug.
This is a big problem in R6 because the game's primary focus, SP and MP, is Close Quaters (Urban) maps with intricate rooms; doorways; blind corners; furniture; windows; floorplans; etc. where smaller movements and adjustments in aim are the cornerstone to success versus games like Ghost Recon where it is mostly long distance battles over large open terrain.
Add to that recoil, exaggerrated or not, as a seperate function (as in Raven Shield) and the system becomes more unrealistic, ironically because recoil (kickback) should already be accounted for in the reticule/pip system... But it isn't, hence, the player is penalized twice for small movments and again with recoil, I.E. kickback which makes the game feel more luck based even if it isn't.
B) The big flaw in the ballistics systems in most FPS is they do NOT separate body movement from aim movement and penalize the player equally when they are two completely different things and should not effect each other as drastically as they are do.
This points right back to my initial statement of how the reticule/pip system penalizes all types of movement, because it treats movement of the mouse the same as pressing the "A" or "D" key (Left; Right) on the keyboard.
A possible solution to this would be for devs to to eliminate any movement penalties when you use ONLY the mouse.
This does not mean you would get 100% accuracy wherever you aim by simply aiming... But what it would do is address the problem of penalizing small mouse (aim) movement which is more crucial in CQB than any other aspect.
This way, if you were moving, for example, you can stop and then aim using your mouse and you should be able to hit what you are aiming at and not have to wait an "eternity" for the pips to close.
If you add recoil/kickback TO THE FIRST PERSON WEAPON MODEL ONLY in a system like this I don't think people would mind it as much because recoil/kickback IS a more immersive and realistic feature... But doesn't take the skill out of the hands of skilled players, nor does it introduce an element of luck like a randomized cone-of-fire system does.
Would this mean recoil/kickback becomes only a visual feature if it is only applied to the FPWM?
Yes and no.
The second part of what I propose is whenever you move YOUR BODY, I.E. press the movement keys, this is where we go back to the old-style movement penalties where the pips -- IF they even exist in this model -- Would spread out to the corner of your screens to simulate/visualize inaccuracy while moving... But if you walked or moved slower (than running) the pip spread would not be as large and the moment you stop, slow down, or even go prone, it switches over to the mouse model so you can snap-target that enemy and not be penalized for it.
Another possible addition to this would be if you move just your body the first person weapon model drops toward the ground -- Like when you point a weapon at a friendly NPC in Half-Life II -- Which means you can't shoot at all unless you really slow down (walk; tactical jog) and it comes back up.
I know people will say this would turn the game into a run-stop-shoot game -- and it would, most likely -- But realistically, gamers would have to either be willing to choose a more evolved system like above, or stick with what is an outdated, one-size-fits all approach to movement penalities and ballistics to have a faster gaming experience...
Which is exactly where the issue of realism and gameplay balance comes up again and is what we are all trying to hash out on threads like this
Senior Member
personally I like the OFP sight model. Basically the onscreen sight is broken down into what could be considered the back sight, the T, and the front sight, the I
When the I inside the T, your front and back sights are aligned and your shots are accurate. Movement causes the I to wonder out of the T simulated quick movements or the constant shock of running that causes you to knock your sight alignment out. Place the T on a target, the I maybe off to the side momentary, causing a shot to go off target. Wait for the sight to stabalize and you got an accurate shot. Recoil is then a seperate concideration in the equation.
Member
Well, you are incorrect once again. I play Raven Shield on a daily basis and have been since the getgo. My shots register and hit a target where I lay the pip on. I don't know how many times you have played RVS but it seems to me you don't play very much.Originally posted by subzero1900:
the Rvs ret model/recoil is luck baised, there is no skill.
Its all about putting X amount of bullets in Y amount of Time with Z amount of luck.
the more bullets you put out in the least amout of seconds is all its about, look at the best weapon in game
the Famas (super high ROF) climbs to the ceiling in less than 5 seconds. All its about is saying ooh, i was able to point at him while fighting the screen from going up, not.... "I was able to counteract my gun from running away from the target and managed to landing my shots"
some people really need to get past this idealism that "Random" isn't = Skill or they need to realise it is random try spinning around with a DE .357 (or any other weapon with simi-auto) stop with the gun pointed right at the guys head standing next to you and see if it hits (with him standing right next to you) the bullet will miracusly miss with the gun's barrel dug into his temple, and hit the cieling, wall and any other thing the size of a BARN behind him it isnt about controll, its about luck and tricking you into thinking you are actually controlling the shots.
Banned
Senior Member
OT:Originally posted by subzero1900:
some people really need to get past this idealism that "Random" isn't = Skill or they need to realise it is random.
One reason the "random = skill" mindset has taken hold is because of Counter-Strike -- More than any other game, imo, because of its popualrity and high visibility in international in e-sports.
I am not knocking CS as I play it as well (1.6 and CSS).
However, I also know how it is designed and this randomized c-o-f system was the only thing the original Mod team had to work with at the time because it did give the Mod a much more "realistic" feel -- And the early betas were much more realistic than 1.6 and CSS -- Because the original Half-Life ballistics were very similar to most shooters of that era (sci-fi, or not) and used a "where you aim is where you hit" system which felt "static" and "unrealistic", ironically because almost every single shot was dead on which is not realistic either.
In short, had CS stuck with the early betas recoil models which weren't as exaggerated or extreme, it would probably be an okay system, but this is not what happened as CS has evolved and hence, CS is very luck-based now more than ever... Yet, again, due to its popularity as an international e-sport, most kids who play the game competitively just accept this and really don't care about it if we are going to be honest.
But on the other hand, the larger success of e-sports depend entirely on convincing the mainstream there is actually skill in playing video games and this is exactly why CS is never featured as a premiere e-sport when doing press for the mainstream media. Instead, games like Quake, Painkiller, UT and other DM games are used because (not only are the games easier to understand, but) if asked, the ballistics systems are very accurate which means there is very little luck involved which helps legitimize the "skill" of the "cyberathletes" they are trying to promote to the masses. It is like CS and its ballistics are a "dirty little secret" because of how much luck is involved in the game IF you know how it is designed
......
DayGlow:
The OFP model was good, but most of the game was long range combat vs. CQB.
There were CQB missions and options (the MP5; MP5SD; etc.), but the bulk of the game was still long range engagements.
CQB is still the major hurdle R6 needs to address fully with a new aim/movement system because there is a unique opportunity here for UBI and whoever is developing R6:5, to actually move not only the R6 series forward, but also FPS in general as we've been discussing. Technology is at a place where if enough time and resources are put in, we could possibly see a jump (evolution) in the FPS genre as a whole with a new aim/movement system with Rainbow Six leading the way as it should be
Member
Member
Well, you are incorrect once again. I play Raven Shield on a daily basis and have been since the getgo. My shots register and hit a target where I lay the pip on. I don't know how many times you have played RVS but it seems to me you don't play very much. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Originally posted by sx_amazing:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by subzero1900:
the Rvs ret model/recoil is luck baised, there is no skill.
Its all about putting X amount of bullets in Y amount of Time with Z amount of luck.
the more bullets you put out in the least amout of seconds is all its about, look at the best weapon in game
the Famas (super high ROF) climbs to the ceiling in less than 5 seconds. All its about is saying ooh, i was able to point at him while fighting the screen from going up, not.... "I was able to counteract my gun from running away from the target and managed to landing my shots"
some people really need to get past this idealism that "Random" isn't = Skill or they need to realise it is random try spinning around with a DE .357 (or any other weapon with simi-auto) stop with the gun pointed right at the guys head standing next to you and see if it hits (with him standing right next to you) the bullet will miracusly miss with the gun's barrel dug into his temple, and hit the cieling, wall and any other thing the size of a BARN behind him it isnt about controll, its about luck and tricking you into thinking you are actually controlling the shots.
just not on RA sbl user servers or FP servers right? Its people like you that amaze me you cheat in the game and then make a statment like this "My shots register and hit a target where I lay the pip on." Of coarse they do when you have norecoil and Autoaim. and the last time you played was 11 days ago there goes your everyday idea....
[FP BL] d323103de2c39d53b3ddb63b6cb32596 "sx|am@zing" "69.226.55.230" FP Ban
Results 1 to 20 of 83
# Game GUID Name IP Dates Ban ID
1 Rainbow Six: Raven Shield 6cb32596 sx|paperbag (hidden) 2006-03-04 17:06:24 to
2006-03-04 20:09:50 Clean
2 Rainbow Six: Raven Shield 6cb32596 |SUPER|am@zing (hidden) 2006-03-04 17:19:19 to
2006-03-04 17:43:31 Clean
3 Rainbow Six: Raven Shield 6cb32596 sx|am@zing (hidden) 2005-11-13 15:10:53 to
2006-03-03 22:26:59 Clean
Junior Member
I've played rvs since release and can say there is no luck what so ever in the recoil/rets. It's very hard to master which is why alot of ppl think others are cheating. Play the game until you're good and you will stop calling ppl cheats. Theres far more skill in the rvs recoil than anything that rs or ld has to offer. The recoil (realistic or not) stops the run and gun. The famus isn't that hard to stop it from climbing, You just need to know how to control it.
I'm hoping rs 5 doesn't go the way of rogue spear. Rvs is a great game. There is no reason why we should go back to rogue spear. Just incase you think im a rvs newbie i've been playing since the original and have all the rainbow six games (including covert ops). Rvs is by far the best.
