1. #1
    TAGERT.'s Avatar Banned
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    Tonight I did a few CLASSICAL comparisons.

    The P47D-27 vs. Bf109G-6 late vs. Fw190A-9

    It has been said by some that "All aircraft in IL2 dive the same!"

    Put another way "All aircraft have the same dive acceleration!"

    The tests I did prove that is NOT the case.

    Starting from 7000m at 300km/h I preformed a -25â? nose pitch dive I obtained the following velocitys

    VELOCITY 3D PLOT


    VELOCITY 2D PLOT


    I'm not saying these dive tests I did are validated by some actually test flight data.. But they do show that in the GAME different airplanes have different dive characteristics.. Thus debunking the "all dive the same statement".

    And here is a graph of the separation vs time. The separation is found by taking the difference in velocity at each second. Than I take that difference and multiply it by a second to get the distance (separation) due to that velocity difference over a second. Then I sum up the distances over time. I also converted the distance to feet. The following graph shows the distance along the flight path, to get the X and Y componets of the distance you would have to use the pitch angle.

    SEPARATION 2D PLOT


    Also these dive characteristics I recorded *tend* to fit the historical norm IMHO... That being

    The P47 is one bad a$$ diving sob!

    It totally leaves the 109G-6 in the dust.. But only slightly pulls away from the Fw190.. At least until parts start comming off of the 190.. Then the P47 pulls way ahead!

    For the rest of the plots you can check them out here.

    PLOTS <-A pdf file

    Note that the elevator diflecton did not log for the 109. I have found that some aircraft dont log it for some reason. So I used the pitch angle to sync up the data.

    And the orginal track files are here

    ZipTRACKS

    And here is a link to the log files I collected from the track files

    ZipLOGS

    I used the onset of pitch to sync up the data

    Enjoy

    PS I still havent graphed the seperation yet.. Which will show how BIG of an effect a LITTLE speed delta has on seperation.. ie the thing the pilots noticed


    TAGERT

    [This message was edited by TAGERT. on Tue September 07 2004 at 11:00 PM.]
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  2. #2
    TAGERT.'s Avatar Banned
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    Tonight I did a few CLASSICAL comparisons.

    The P47D-27 vs. Bf109G-6 late vs. Fw190A-9

    It has been said by some that "All aircraft in IL2 dive the same!"

    Put another way "All aircraft have the same dive acceleration!"

    The tests I did prove that is NOT the case.

    Starting from 7000m at 300km/h I preformed a -25â? nose pitch dive I obtained the following velocitys

    VELOCITY 3D PLOT


    VELOCITY 2D PLOT


    I'm not saying these dive tests I did are validated by some actually test flight data.. But they do show that in the GAME different airplanes have different dive characteristics.. Thus debunking the "all dive the same statement".

    And here is a graph of the separation vs time. The separation is found by taking the difference in velocity at each second. Than I take that difference and multiply it by a second to get the distance (separation) due to that velocity difference over a second. Then I sum up the distances over time. I also converted the distance to feet. The following graph shows the distance along the flight path, to get the X and Y componets of the distance you would have to use the pitch angle.

    SEPARATION 2D PLOT


    Also these dive characteristics I recorded *tend* to fit the historical norm IMHO... That being

    The P47 is one bad a$$ diving sob!

    It totally leaves the 109G-6 in the dust.. But only slightly pulls away from the Fw190.. At least until parts start comming off of the 190.. Then the P47 pulls way ahead!

    For the rest of the plots you can check them out here.

    PLOTS &lt;-A pdf file

    Note that the elevator diflecton did not log for the 109. I have found that some aircraft dont log it for some reason. So I used the pitch angle to sync up the data.

    And the orginal track files are here

    ZipTRACKS

    And here is a link to the log files I collected from the track files

    ZipLOGS

    I used the onset of pitch to sync up the data

    Enjoy

    PS I still havent graphed the seperation yet.. Which will show how BIG of an effect a LITTLE speed delta has on seperation.. ie the thing the pilots noticed


    TAGERT

    [This message was edited by TAGERT. on Tue September 07 2004 at 11:00 PM.]
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  3. #3
    SkyChimp's Avatar Senior Member
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    Good job, Tagert. Nice graph, too.

    Regards,

    The fuselage is short and fat,
    the plank-like wings are square and flat,
    While out behind in foul or fair,
    the Wildcat's tail stands fair and square.
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  4. #4
    TAGERT.'s Avatar Banned
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
    Good job, Tagert. Nice graph, too.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks Chimp! I know your hard to impress.. So I take that as a big complement!

    I noticed you said graph and not graphs.. Did you take a look at the link to the pdf with all the other plots? I really like the 2D vel graph with the hi/lo bars.. You can really see the speed delta between the P47 and 109. My next goal is to get the equation of those lines, find the speed delta, and calc the seperation per time.. That is the important part! The part pilots noticed!


    TAGERT
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  5. #5
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  6. #6
    SkyChimp's Avatar Senior Member
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    GraphS. Sorry. In PDF even. Good study.

    Regards,

    The fuselage is short and fat,
    the plank-like wings are square and flat,
    While out behind in foul or fair,
    the Wildcat's tail stands fair and square.
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  7. #7
    robban75's Avatar Senior Member
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TAGERT.:
    It totally leaves the 109G-6 in the dust.. But only slightly pulls away from the Fw190.. At least until parts start comming off of the 190.. Then the P47 pulls way ahead!

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Excactly, but parts didn't start comming of in RL. In the transonic regime planes should become noseheavy, not break apart.

    Here's a dive test comparing the La-7 and D-9.

    La-7(left, D-9(right)

    These are the best speeds I got from 3 tests. (in TAS)

    7500 - 308 - 309 starting speed
    7000 - 489 - 489
    6500 - 618 - 616
    6000 - 708 - 707
    5500 - 771 - 772
    5000 - 831 - 837
    4500 - 888 - 900
    4000 - 936 - 954
    3500 - 976 - 999



    Oberleutnant Oskar-Walter Romm thoughts on his aircraft.

    "I found the Fw 190D-9 to be greatly superior to those of my opponents. During dogfights at altitudes of between about 10,000 and 24,000ft, usual when meeting the Russians, I found that I could pull the D-9 into a tight turn and still retain my speed advantage. In the descent the Dora-9 picked up speed much more rapidly than the A type; in the dive it could leave the Russian Yak-3 and Yak-9 fighters standing."
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  8. #8
    TAGERT.'s Avatar Banned
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by robban75:
    Excactly, but parts didn't start comming of in RL. In the transonic regime planes should become noseheavy, not break apart.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Maybe.. Maybe not.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by robban75:
    Here's a dive test comparing the La-7 and D-9.

    La-7(left, D-9(right)

    These are the best speeds I got from 3 tests. (in TAS)

    7500 - 308 - 309 starting speed
    7000 - 489 - 489
    6500 - 618 - 616
    6000 - 708 - 707
    5500 - 771 - 772
    5000 - 831 - 837
    4500 - 888 - 900
    4000 - 936 - 954
    3500 - 976 - 999
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Got Track?

    Also.. how did you verify your dive angle? No mater.. if you have the track I can find out.

    On that note.. What is your point about these numbers? Are you saying they are good or bad? Ater which I would like to know what real world data you are comparing them to to make such claims.

    In summary.. my only ponit is the statment that "all aircraft dive the same" is not true.


    TAGERT
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  9. #9
    I've been silently following this interesting debate. And just wanted to say I really appreciate all the hard work guys like Target have put in to try and find out how things really behave in this sim

    s!

    :FI:Snoop Baron
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  10. #10
    Btw downloading those tracks now. Thanks again.

    :FI:Snoop Baron
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