Small pic: if you are my friend, I will save you regardless of anyting else. I will act out passion, not much thinking.Originally posted by BM357_Sniper:
I hope I never need to depend on you to save my life. You would sacrifice me for some more kills at a later time. lol
Big pic: if it turns out that I saved only you instead of saving 1000 others at the same time (or later time), I haven't really gave my best for my country, have I?
The difference can be captured with the judgement about the Japanese kamikadzes? You will probably think they weren't heros' since they haven't really saved anyone, just mindless killers of lots of american people. But I think they were heros of the Japanese people, because they acted out of self-sacrifice for them.
Too much obsession with self-sacrifice can be dangerous. It's easy to stay on the high moral ground, when you have got only one chance to sacrify yourself. But the grim reality catches up quickly, if you have multiple choices (e.g.., whom to save etc.) but you can't save everyone.
rnzoli--
Although the comparison to kamikaze pilots is an interesting one, the more I thought about it, the more I disagree. The Japanese system of fielding kamikaze pilots was forced upon their pilots--in other words, to disobey was dishonor and/or death. Sure, there were some who were volunteers and saw it as their duty to "save others in their country"--and so for those, that is bravery and to a certain extent, heroism. But some didn't have a "choice", others saw it as futile and a waste of life and resources.
At the point where a soldier makes the *choice* to sacrifice himself in time of war against the opponent's military (or military support) for the benefit of others, he is a hero to me.
Although having said that, the suicide bombers who indiscriminately take out civilians in their own "war" doesn't sit wellwith my western values. I need to better evaluate why. Perhaps all life is precious and all futures are changeable.
Hmm.
* _54th_Speeder *
The Japanese kamikazes vs. the recent crop of suicide bombers issue, or more correctly, those that crashed into the WTC, was put into good perspective in "Blossoms in the Wind" by M.G. Sheftall (I'm paraphrasing a little bit here):
The Japanese kamikazes made their suicide dives out of love for their country, whereas those that crashed into the WTC did it out of hate for another country.
From what I've read and seen and heard of both kinds of suicide attacks, I'd have to agree to that from the big picture perspective, but of course I can't speak from the individual's perspective.
I agree 100% with the 'Hmm.'Originally posted by SithSpeeder:
Perhaps all life is precious and all futures are changeable.
Hmm.
* _54th_Speeder *This is a tough subject to evaluate. I have no doubt that quite a lot of people in the world consider the WTC terrorists as heros, too. If the emphasis is on war-time and civilians, there will be many people who label the destruction of Dresden by the RAF bombers as a similar terrorist act. This would leave too far, outside of the thread.
What I agree with: life is precious and futures are changeable. Have to be careful not to give your life from something less precious. Example: I would throw away mine without hesitation, if I can save my children from death. Their life is more precious that mine, and their future is more changeable too. However, I would certainly not throw away my life to save our prime minister. Am I a bad guy now?![]()
For me being a true hero involves a cold-headed reasoning about what can you achieve with your sacrifice, and who else (besides you) will pay the bill (e.g., your family, who depends on you). If you still do it after this calculation, then you are my hero. If you hastily ram a bomber with your talented life, while destroying a training airplane NOT intended for air combat, perhaps in short supply, AND only to take out one bomber that is followed by a dozen more...well, that's more like a sad miscalculation. I still give credit for the personal strength to carry out that decision, but it was the wrong decision IMO.
At the risk of being seen to rain on the parade:
<span class="ev_code_RED">Dead heros are still Dead.</span>
And to quote Patton:
<span class="ev_code_RED">"The objective of war is not to die for your country, it is to make the other poor b*****d die for his"</span>
Is a single He-111 worth a pilot and an Anson? Probably, but it's not a very good rate of exchange; bullets are cheaper than aeroplanes.
You are showing one thing that the living have over the dead:Small pic: if you are my friend, I will save you regardless of anyting else. I will act out passion, not much thinking.
Big pic: if it turns out that I saved only you instead of saving 1000 others at the same time (or later time), I haven't really gave my best for my country, have I?
The difference can be captured with the judgement about the Japanese kamikadzes? You will probably think they weren't heros' since they haven't really saved anyone, just mindless killers of lots of american people. But I think they were heros of the Japanese people, because they acted out of self-sacrifice for them.
Too much obsession with self-sacrifice can be dangerous. It's easy to stay on the high moral ground, when you have got only one chance to sacrify yourself. But the grim reality catches up quickly, if you have multiple choices (e.g.., whom to save etc.) but you can't save everyone.
Hindsight= 20/20.. 66 years later we all have the abiliy to sit back and analyze a decision that one man had to make in a split second. (Assuming that the collision was intentional, which it looks like it WAS). He saw an opportunity to make, what was most likely in his mind, some kind of impact on the war being fought. Obviously he couldn't save everybody. But he did save the lives of some. There are children alive today that might not be here because of what he did. (I am speaking for the non-combatants, those who did not put themselves in a situation to be killed like the bomber crews and the RAF SGT)
You speak of the big picture. Hell, the guy could have made it through training, and gone into operation with a squadron only to be shot down and killed/captured on his first mission. That is part of the big picture as well.. But like I said before.. Being able to look back and scrutinize his decision is not a luxury he had on that night.
In my book the man took a drastic measure during a struggle for the survival of his country. To me, he is a H-E-R-O