Bumping. I would also like to know what units, if any ran the engine with higher boost during the war. Even pilot accounts would be nice, we've heard it confirmed many times that the P47 was boosted often, there has to be some info about this thing. I look forward to flying it, hope I can find a server that isnt 90% red like usually happens when I try to fly red though.
=S= All
Hmmm very interesting. I have 2 different books one published in 1990 & one in 2004. Both show the P-38L as being powered by 2 Turbocharged Allison V-1710-111/113 engines with 1600hp. I wonder where this 1720hp engine came from?
The P-38L was rated at a max speed of 414mph @ 25,000 ft.
3,924 P-38L's were built by Lockheed & 113 were built by Consolidated-Vutee in Nashville TN.
Resources:
P-38 Lightning in Action, Squadron signal publications copyright 1990.
The Aviation Factfile: Aircraft of World War II
copyright 2004. I highly recommend this book. It covers over 120 of the most popular Aircraft between 1939 & 1945 and @ $17.98 from amazon it's a bargain.
Heres the Amazon link.
[CODE] http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1592232248/qid=1...771086-5816831/CODE]
=S-
S!
I suggest getting a copy of Vee's for Victory!: The Story of the Allison V-1710 Aircraft Engine, 1929-1948 by Daniel D. Whitney. Used copies can be found at http://www.alibris.com for abut $60.00.
The 2 best books for the P38 are "Vee for Victory" and Warren Bodie's book "The P38 Lightning". All P38L's were fitted with the F30 engine capable of 3200rpm at 1,725hp WER. Becuase of prior engine problems the USAAF was nervous about posting the 3200rpm figure in their pilots manual.
But it was SOP to run at these ratings.
According to Whitney & Bodie, Allison engine techs were present in the ETO working with P38 crew chiefs instructing them of the operations of 1725hp WER and engine maitenance. The new F-30 engines were proving to be much more reliable than any previous P38 engines.
P38J
Here are official performance numbers of an USAAF fighter evaluation of the P38J-10, P47D-10, P39Q-5 and P51B. The P38J-10 serial number AC42-67869 was flown by 3 pilots during a 30hour accelerated flight test on December 2, 1943.
Maximum horsepower at 60.8 inches of Hg manifold pressure, 3000rpm was listed at 1,612 brake horse power (WEP) per F-17 Allison engines. (P38 J10-LO) pg.213 "The Lockheed P38 Lightning" by Warren M. Bodie Lockheed engineer/historian.
USAAF flight test results P38J-10 :
Maximum Sea Level speed -----------------------345mph
Maximum critical alt speed --------------------421.5mph (WEP) (25,800ft)
Rate of climb (SL) ----------------------------4000fpm
Rate of climb (critical alt) ------------------2900fpm (23,400ft)
Time to critical alt --------------------------6.19 mins. (23,400ft)
Service ceiling -------------------------------40,000ft
P38L
The P38L was fitted with high-output Allison F-30 engines capable of 1,725hp (WEP) rating. Bodie posts this 1,725hp WEP rating about 5 times in his book. This WEP rating coincided with an order from General Jimmy Doolittle commander of the 8th Air Force for a special fuel blend for P38 operations. This letter is dated early March 1944.
(Poor Brit fuel quality was considered to be one of the sources of earlier Allison engine problems)
Bodie also says that the P38L max speed of 414mph listed in many books was actualy a military power rating and not a WEP power rating, that is a difference of 600hp.
The basic performance figures for the P-38L are as follows (from Lockheed
factory test logbooks):
Max speed at sea level: 360 mph
Max speed at 5,500 ft : 369 mph
Max speed at 23,500 ft. 440 mph (WEP) 5 minutes max.
Max speed at critical alt: 444 mph @ 25,800 (WEP) 5 minutes max.
Allison spent a great deal of time and money on the "dash thirty" program.
They produced volumes of dynometer data for Lockheed and the AAF.
Lockheed did their own testing and confirmed the Allison numbers. Hence,
the installation of the -30 in the L model.
From Vee for Victory/Bodie
The following are the CORRECT stats for the Allison V-1710F-30.
Write 'em down somewhere....
Ratings [minutes] Power RPM Manifold [in.Hg] Altitude [ft]
Normal (no limit) 1,100 2,600 44 30,000
Take Off (5) 1,475 3,000 54 SL
Military (15) 1,475 3,000 54 30,000
WEP (5) 1,725 3,200 60 28,700
Bodie also has one of the best P47 books out there:
"Sveresky to Victory"
Robert Johnson was running his P47D-5 at 72" MAP and claimed he was getting close to 470mph TAS at alt. That was in 43/44. Later P47s models were claiming even higher speeds while overboosted.
I had requested most of this information from the USAF historical archives and information about P47 groups overboosting their engines several months ago. Still waiting for the documents to arrive.
I also recieved emails from Warren Bodie, C.C. Jordan, & Dr Carlo Kopp concerning these P38L performance ratings.
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 10:30 AM
Subject: RE: P38L WEP rating of 1,725hp
Email from Warren Bodie:
Hello Keith,
What in the world is going on outside of my small enclave of residents here on the shore of beautiful Lake Chatuge?
I am being deluged this week by all sorts of people wanting to know if I can provide the best possible accurate info on several related and unrelated av subjects. What will happen when the new Special Edition of FLIGHT JOURNAL gets into circulation in the next couple of weeks. I have a feature story in there on the subject of Supermarine Spitfires.
They only used half of what I submitted, but they are constrained by top management to about 7 or 8 pages for any one story. Umpteen thousands of Spitfires in more models and modified models than anyone can believe were in the fight during WWII.
First of all, let me advise you that with my 43 years of experience in various engineering jobs in the manufacturing industry, and having been on very friendly basis with people from Kelly Johnson and Gen. Ben Kelsey to Jack Northrop and a host of others (I have been a senior service engineer specialist, technical publications supervisor, structural repair designer, etc.,), there are no two engines or no two airplanes that perform to exactly the same level anywhere in the world. Too many manufacturing, rigging, adjusting, etc. factors involved, not to mention what each flight hour does to different airframes and engines of the same model, for any two engine-airplane combinations to perform in the same, exact way. I suspect that even two identical appearing cement blocks might not give exactly the same results. Airplanes are subjected to too many different actions and material combinations to work anywhere near exact standards.
The really most definitive book on the subject that you have forwarded to me is the great study and product from my friend, Daniel D. Whitney. Published by Schiffer Publishing Ltd. with ISBN: 0-7643-0561-1; try your local bookstores first, then, if unsuccessful, e-mail to schifferbk@aol.com for info.
But, meantime get this single fact: Allison Engineering qualified the F-30 engine WER at 1,725 bhp at 3200 rpm. However, the USAAF NEVER authorized that rating, with ATSC preferring to stick with a 3000 rpm limitation. These engines were in Lockheed P-38L, F-5G and P-38M airplanes. Aircraft installation, maintenance, rigging, supercharger performance, propeller performance, etc. all affected individulal engine and airplane performance. And, as certain pilots, including the great Col. Cass Hough who shared command with Col. (later B/Gen.) Ben Kelsey, would have been glad to tell you, if you needed more in combat situations, you did whatever was necessary to escape being defeated. If you did it right and if you were lucky enough to have a top-quality PRODUCTION engine set, you won the game. Ben Kelsey would be among the first to agree with me on that assessment. (Just think of how many things can affect friction in an operating engine, with detonation being the most fierce ingredient and fuel being high on the list as well.
No matter who throws other figures at you, with little to fall back on (maybe even Martin Caidin's pitiful Lightning book as a reference), you will not find a better reference source than Dan's book. He pursued facts for years, maybe decades. I never asked. Read the back, inside dust jacket of the book, before you read it. You will learn about Dan's background. When I did my P-38 book, I had already retired from 40 years in the aerospace industry, several years (decades), in fact, of writing for magazines as a side effort. Dan focused on one primary subject out of several millions that could have attracted his attention. His coverage is indisputable. And don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
Cordially, Warren Bodie
____
Thanks for the info Kahuna. That's one of the nice things about this forum is the ability for people to share information. Not everyone can afford the nice library of books they would like (I already spend close to $600 a year on textbooks, so my book budget is about filled there). The way I understand it is that the 1725hp could be considered somewhat of a field mod as it wasn't officially recommended by the airforce, but done anyways? It's too bad we can't get a P47 "field mod" with higher boost.
S!
lbhskier37 Posted Wed June 01 2005 15:21
The way I understand it is that the 1725hp could be considered somewhat of a field mod as it wasn't officially recommended by the airforce, but done anyways? It's too bad we can't get a P47 "field mod" with higher boost.
Hya Ibhskier,
The standard Allison F-30 engine from the factory was capable 3,200rpm and 1,725 WER. This was NOT overboosted. The USAAF had concerns over the extra 200rpms but pilots routinely flew the P38L this way and the engine proved to be very reliable. All the pilot had to do was advance the throttle a little farther to get those extra 200rpms . No field mod was needed. The advent of 150grade Avgas in the ETO sealed the deal of running the P38L at these ratings.
I have sent Oleg a suggestion of using the in game 3-D model of the P47D-27RE as the model for the P47M. In real life the P47D-27 was used as the test bed for the P47M, they basically just installed the new P&W 2800 C series engine in the P47D-27. The P47D-27 with the P47M flight model could be called the "P47D-27 Late" to avoid any copy right problems.
![]()
Number two of three YP-47M development aircraft (P-47D-27-RE).
Warren Bodie photo
Upon being informed of the XP-47M, three YP-47M development aircraft were ordered. These were built using P-47D-27-RE fighters straight off the production line.
Hopefully this or the overboosted records from the USAF Historical archives will show up someday.
___
if I am not mistaken only 112 lightnings were built by the 2nd manufacturing plant. all others were built by lockheed.Originally posted by bolillo_loco:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 3.JG51_Stecher:
Could these later P-38Ls be the ones build by Vultee?
all P-38Ls and not just the last 2,000 like others have said were built with the F-30 allision engines which were rated by allision at 1,725 hp. The army aircorps never officially adopted this rating during the war to my knowledge. the F-30 was allisions identification of the engine. the army called them 111/113 one being right hand drive the other being left hand drive. the F-17 was the engine used in the J model which the army called 89/91.
from things I have read I would suspect the 38L with a take off weight of 17,699lbs to climb 4,500-5,000 fpm initial and have a top speed of 440 mph while using the allision 1,725 hp rating.
again, all 3,900 odd 38Ls had the F-30 111/113 allision rated 1,725 hp engines. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
good to know.
just wondering why maddox made it not easier to edit the already existend P-38L to that powerstandart , instead adding another one. would have been much better and less confusing. propably looks better in the 4.0 README
- and sure, a K-14 would have been nice
but its not there
btw, with all that Lightning experts here around. when the P-38L saw its first combat action in ETO and PTO ?
I believe the P-38 made its combat debut in the Aluetian Islands campaign...I wouldn't bet a paycheck on it but I'd definitely save one of my lifelines on "who wants to be a millionare" if I were asked that question.
Oops...missed the "L" part. I don't know for sure, but I think it was March or April of 1944 and I don't know which theatre first...that is a difficult question because there is a process before the plane actually flies its first sortie...or goes to squadron strenght etc.