1. #11
    bolillo_loco's Avatar Banned
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    Originally posted by Hunde_3.JG51:
    I can find nothing on this, or any information showing a rating of 1,720hp. Nor do I see any speeds approaching 440mph ever mentioned, all top speeds seem to be 414-417mph. I just checked some reference books I had, and did a bunch of searches on the internet, and I have seen nothing about a P-38L utilizing 1,720hp during wartime.

    Does anyone actually have information about this plane being used in combat, or does it belong on the YP-80, He-162, Me-163 etc. ban list?
    this doesnt supprise me one bit. may I venture the guess that you do not like the P-38 and your not willing to spend money on books written specifically written on the P-38 or units that flew them. I frown heavily on people who use net searches.........reason........nearly all information that is posted on the web is posted by less than credible sources.

    414 mph has been used in every general reference book I have ever read and until you purchase books written specifically on the P-38 you will never see figures higher than that.

    I can assure you that several books state that the 38L was rated for 1,725 hp and that it had a top speed of 360-365 mph sea level - 440-445 mph at altitude and the rate of climb was 4,500-5,000 fpm. warren bodies book "Lockheed P-38 Lightning" is one. several books by Jeff Ethell are others. if your only going to buy one book on the P-38 I would suggest warren bodies book. it is very inexpensive at 16 dollars, any other book only confirms what bodie has already written.

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/096293595...nce&s=books&n=507846

    to exclude the plane because there is no real proof that pilots used the lockheed rating is rather odd when one considers just how many a/c are included in this game and used by servers that never saw any combat or their combat useage was very limited......ie 200 planes or less. there were nearly 4,000 P-38Ls manufactured during the war and they served in every yes EVERY theater that the americans fought in.

    a less than complete list of my P-38 sources

    P-38 lightning in WW II color jeff ethell isbn 0879388684

    american eagles P-38 lightning units of the 8th and 9th af roger freemanisbn 1903223172

    happy jacks go buggy, jack ilfrey isbn 0764306642

    lockheed P-38 Lightning steve pace isbn 0760301514

    The P-38 Lightning gene gurney library of congress catalog card number 70-76218

    peter three eight john stanawayisbn 0933126735

    an escort of P-38s john mullens isbn 1883809037

    the 370th f/g in WWII jay jones isbn 0764317792

    adorimini 82nd fb in WWII steve blake w/ john stanaway no isbn or library of congress number listed

    attack and conquer 8th fg in WWII stanaway and lawrence j hickey isbn 0887408087

    possum clover and hades 475th fg in WWII stanaway isbn 0887405185

    fighter aces of the usa raymond toliver and trevor constable isbn 0764303481

    the geyser gang the 428th fg in WWII john truman steinko library of congress catalog card number 86-060601

    the lockheed P-38 Lightning warren bodie isbn 09629355905

    pattons eyes in the sky tom Ivie isbn 1903223261

    55th fg vs the luftwaffe gray isbn 1580070043

    P-38 Lightning jeff ethell isbn 0517552477

    americas hundred thousand F. Dean isbn 0764300725

    lockheed P-38 Lightning frederick johnsen isbn 0933424655

    P-38 lightning at war joe christy and jeff ethell isbn 0711007721

    the P-38 lightning pamela reynolds isbn 0938021354

    vees for victory allison 1710 aircraft engine daniel whitney isbn 0764305611

    I could go on with another 20+ odd books that go into a lot more detail than any general reference book that you will read. because I have read the abovem mentioned books this is why I have not only heard of but seen the 1725 hp figure and performance figures for the 38L.

    get bodies book, at 16 dollars its a steal

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/096293595...nce&s=books&n=507846
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  2. #12
    I also hope the P-38 Late gets this.

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  3. #13
    AerialTarget's Avatar Banned
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    You mean the pilot's relief tube? Yes, that is something that no P-38 pilot should be without! Oh, wait. You mean the sight, don't you?

    On another note, that doesn't happen to be the same John Clements as the one in ARMA, does it? It seems to good to be true that there might be another P-38 obsessed sword fanatic out there!
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  4. #14
    I never said I wanted this plane banned, I asked if it was going to end up in this catagory. And if you do a search you will find that I have said several times as far as the "cool" factor goes, nothing beats the P-38 with its loud dual Allisions and nasty nose armament (that mysteriously wallows around when firing). As for books, I said that I used reference books, meaning they cover a large group of aircraft, I didn't exactly use books by Dr. Suess to find information. My collection of more in-depth books deal with the FW-190. Sorry I am "not willing to spend the money" on specific books dealing with every type of aircraft , that is what I thought this forum was about, sharing information.

    I posted threads on the Mustang III (read that again and ask yourself if it sounds like I want it banned, nice try with the LW bias though ) and the P-38L with 1,720hp because I just saw them in the beta readme that was posted and I wanted some information on them. The Mustang III thread filled up with good information almost immediately, while this thread had to be bumped several times. As for being afraid of any plane, well, I'll let the numbers speak for themselves. As for chasing planes around the P-38J is faster than the A-6 in '43 at SL and faster at very high altitudes. The P-51B is no slow poke either. In '44 I end up in the FW-190A-8 alot (I have flown the Ta-152 about 8 times total) because again, I like historical stuff, and the P-51D overall is easily faster and the P-47D is as fast or faster at all but the lowest altitude and simply blows it away at high altitude (as it should). If you are always chasing 190's and 109's it depends at what altitude. It's not like the Blue side airacraft are faster at all altitudes.

    So take off the tinfoil hat and relax.

    And I will ask again, any proof they were used in combat? You say several books talk about the 1,720hp Lightning, could you share this information, particularly concerning use in combat? I don't care what planes did on occasion, or at manufacturer/test facilities. I fly on historical servers, and we are VERY specific about what planes we include when we make missions/scenarios, this is my sole reason for asking about this. I simply want to know where it belongs.
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  5. #15
    SkyChimp's Avatar Senior Member
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    There was not a "special" P-38 with engines that developed that power. They were run of the mill P-38Ls with V-1710-111/113 engines run at a higher boost. The tests that produced the numbers in the above graph were apparently Lockheed tests. The boost required to achieve 1,700+ hp was never approved by the USAAF for general use.
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  6. #16
    bolillo_loco's Avatar Banned
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    as I have stated and skychimp has just restated...every 38L had the F-30s rated at 1,720 hp. there is no special trick to using that rating. even when talking about the 414-417 mph figure I can provide 421-426 to nearly 430 mph figures from several of my books for 38J and 38L models that are using the 1,600 hp rating and the rate of climb is 4,000 fpm at that rating. the time to climb to 20,000 ft is a full minute lower than what is listed in other books.

    I would like to see the 5,200lb bomb load that some 38 units used. for this I can provide pictures, about a dozen pictures to be exact. the standard bomb load of the J and L model was 4,000 lbs 2 x 2,000 lb bombs. It seems that a few imaginative units fixed 4 additional hard points next to the factory ones which meant that the J and L could carry 4 x 300 lb bombs and 2 x 2000 lb bombs for a 5,200 lb bomb load. I have also seen pics (few pics, very few) of a P-38 with 6 50 cal nose guns and 1 20mm. I believe it was only used by 1-2 pilots though.

    I use the term general reference books. I consider any book that lists multiple ww II a/c and gives a very brief discription of 1-3 pages a general reference book. general reference books are great at giving general information on a lot of a/c, but lack a lot of detail. the books that you have described sound a lot like general reference books.

    16 dollars for warren bodies book is very cheap and the only real book you need on that a/c.

    you may never find what you wish here at a forum. I almost didnt provide the sources that I did simply because I learned one thing about discussing the P-38, nearly everybody thinks that it is a laim a/c. no matter what I post (quoted from a book) a lot of people come a long and pick it apart almost like they have a vendeta against the P-38. because of this I am simply not willing to spend hours to go through my 40+ books on the P-38 to quote authors.

    due to the 38s unpopularity I doubt many have the amount of books that I do. in the years that I have been reading this forum I would venture a guess that there are about a dozen true P-38 fans out there and less than half of those have an extensive collection of books written on the P-38.
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  7. #17
    That's cool loco, my friend is a P-38 nut and I have a high opinion of the aircraft myself.

    Oh, I almost forgot. Just so you don't think I have anything against the P-38, not too long ago I posted (took me over an hour to type) a pilot's impression of his first flight in the P-38 from the book "Pacific Sweep." It was very complimentory towars the Lightning and the author finished by saying something like "I feel the P-38 was the finest aircraft of its day, and yes, I have flown the P-51."

    Totally agree about the heavier bombload.

    As for general reference books, I am aware of their limitations, hence me asking for detailed information.

    I'll check out that book (thanks for the heads up).

    Sorry you had bad experiences with the forum .

    But again, I am sorry to sound like a broken record but was this power used in combat? Is there any proof that it was, or pilot accounts? As it stands now it sounds more like a "what if" type thing. I understand that any P-38L could, according to sources, achieve those numbers, but were they used/approved?

    Again, to understand where I am coming from you have to realize that I try to fly with historical planesets as much as possible. I am not against the P-38, I just want to know where this new P-38L will belong, and the only way I can do that is to know if it was approved and used for combat. Even in my limited readings, something that important with such a big difference in performance would surely be worthy of more frequent mention, at least IMO. Also, it seems from what I have read from mid '44 on the P38 was used almost exclusively as a ground attack aircraft. Maybe it was present in the Pacific, who knows.
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  8. #18
    I found what I had typed previously (note I did the same for the P-40 and P-47):

    http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/5291...291073142#5291073142

    Now tell me if I have a vendetta against the P-38 .
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  9. #19
    bolillo_loco's Avatar Banned
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    sorry didnt mean to imply that you personally had a vendetta against the 38 I meant to say that it happens frequently. I just meant that when one spends hours researching a subject and then puts it to print w quotes and w/o personal opinions only to have it picked apart by people who only have their "general reference books"........well after a while it seems pretty futile.

    I think more people should do what I did. I disliked the P-38 and I got tired of reading what P-38 fans had to say about it. they were quoting books and the like so I set out to prove that they were stating their opinions and not what was written in books......after I read the 2-5 books that they suggested I was a little less skeptical of the 38, but still unsure. well after another dozen books I began to understand what they were writting about. 40+ books later I agree with most of what they say. I will not however stand by and let somebody (a 38 fan) write untruths about the 38 being some end all be all WW II a/c. If somebody strays from what I have read in the many books I have read I will question it. usually they have no source which I can purchase or they are just flat out lying. an example would be somebody stating that the 38 could safely be dived to mach .80 it simply wasnt possible....well atleast from what I have read and I will call them on it.

    I wish I had the money to purchase bodies book on the P-38 for everybody that does not have one. sadly though I would guess that many would not read it simply because it has been treated like a red headed step child. rumors, half truths, and mistatements about the 38 flourished during its use and continue to be carried on to this day...............mainly by "general reference books"

    if I remember correctly you are somewhat of a fan of the Fw 190. I am quite sure that you are aware that general reference books do not give an accurate account of how the Fw 190 performed. The Fw 190 is another less than glamorous WW II fighter so many general reference books paint a less than accurate picture of how the 190 performed. The same is true for the P-38, but more pronounced IMO. I do not think that there is a fighter more maligned by print and rumors than the P-38.

    I do remember the threads you posted on the 47 and 51. I myself am as guilty of doing to others as what I complain about people doing to me.

    the 38L served in every theater the americans fought in. this includes fighting against the germans be it from england, bases on the continent, north africa, and italy.

    how many units used it? thats a good question and I would guess nobody will ever know. I am not sure what a/c are used in the historical server your speaking of, but I would guess that many of the german a/c included played such an insignifican role in the war that they should be excluded. I am also quite sure that many of them carry armament that was not used a lot in combat if it was ever used at all. I see historically inaccurate servers all the time. just because one or a few units began use of a x plane in december 1944 this qualifies it as a 1944 plane. join the server and everybody is using that a/c. to me a historical server should only use run of the mill a/c that were fielded by countries that took part in the conflict. an example..... during 1944 the 109G6 was the most commonly used german a/c during that entire year. I think nearly half of all 30,000 odd 109s were 109G6 or earlier G versions. about 1400 109K4s were produced which is about .0467 % of total 109 production..........join a 1944 historical server and look at what type of 109 is being used. the bulk and majority are 109K4s not 109G6s

    moreover I believe that the entire "historically accurate" part has no place in this game anywhere. La 7 3 x 20 mm, yak 3p, ta 152, go 229, P-80, F4U-1C, I-185, bf 109Z, Ki-84Ic, the list goes on and on of a/c in this game that played a very minor part in the war, never saw combat, were prototypes, never made it past the drawing board, or were post war a/c yet many are accepted in "historically accurate" servers.
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  10. #20
    Good reply Loco.

    Gotta get some sleep but I just wanted to clarify something.

    We try to set up historical planesets by month and year. We try to utilize aircraft that actually fought against eachother and those that saw the bulk of the action. As I said I end up in the FW-190A8 alot because it was the most produced Anton. I rarely fly the Dora. And I almost never fly the Ta-152 unless goofing around on a server.

    Here is where we set up matches now:

    http://www.gofisc.com/

    We created FISC to find like minded people/squads. We prefer certain settings and many of us appreciate historical accuracy. We brought this together because we could not find what we wanted consistently on servers. We are about immersion, and that includes historical planesets IMO, and we are trying to do something different. I wish more servers considered historical planesets but the admins probably get drilled with hate mail when they exclude an aircraft so... I wish we could limit armament options, hopefully it will be an option in the future.

    And I totally agree about the planes you listed:

    "La 7 3 x 20 mm, yak 3p, ta 152, go 229, P-80, F4U-1C, I-185, bf 109Z, Ki-84Ic, etc."

    You won't find any of these aircraft on matches we create.

    And yes I am a FW-190 fan .

    Anyway, I'll see what I can learn about the P-38. Regardless, I think it was an excellent aircraft and that it was certainly underrated.

    Cheers!
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