1. #1
    mcoca's Avatar Junior Member
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    (Edit: Changed subject to something a bit more clear, and cleared up the explanation)

    Hi, new to this forum, please bear with me :-)

    Yesterday I noticed something strange with convoys that should be heavily escorted according to the campaign files, but didn't have a single destroyer with them when I encountered them in the campaign.

    After posting my findings over at subsim, and some investigation there, we can confirm that there is a bug that's causing most of the escorts in the late game not to spawn:

    In a random group (all convoys are random groups), no ships will spawn that have a more recent AppearanceDate (defined in the Roster files) than the leader ship, even if they are defined to spawn with 100% probability.

    Because most convoys are led by merchants, and most merchants have appearance dates of 1938, only the very old destroyers will spawn as convoy escorts. For example, if a convoy has an assigned escort of a very old destroyer, and a more modern one, only the old one will spawn. Even worse, as the war progresses, there will be no old destroyers defined, only the modern ones that won't spawn. So the convoy will be unescorted. That explains why I regularly find unescorted convoys in 1944.

    Much more detailed info, with examples, at the relevant threads at subsim:
    http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=32780

    and
    http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=32810.
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  2. #2
    A.K.Davis's Avatar Senior Member
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    Not sure how this one slipped through. Pretty important. Would be nice to know if it is a known issue, as the workaround is far from ideal.
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  3. #3
    Great find!

    I hope a Dev knows about this.
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  4. #4
    hmmm... Great work ! Probably thats why I have so far never seen modern destroyers ...and e.g. escort carriers.
    Hope this serious bug is adressed soon.
    durex
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  5. #5
    Has any effort been made to report this to the Devs?
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  6. #6
    mcoca's Avatar Junior Member
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    Is there a way to contact the Devs other than this forum? If so, I don't know about it.
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  7. #7
    Maybe this could be modded ourselves?
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  8. #8
    I sank a Bogue escort CV last night (I was in a
    XXI in May 1944). He was being escorted by 3
    DDs (didn't closely note their makes however).
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  9. #9
    mcoca's Avatar Junior Member
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    @Wolf52371: There is a discussion at subsim right now on how to work around this. There is no clean way so far.

    @JohnDiFool1: Yes, if the escort carrier was the leader of the group, as defined in the campaign files, it will spawn, as will all destroyers classes in service before the CV (for a Bogue, september 1942). However, if there was a DD defined in the group that came into service after the CV, for example, a DE Buckley (jan. 1943), it would not spawn.
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  10. #10
    mcoca's Avatar Junior Member
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    To help clear up things, here is my complete description of the bug copied from Subsim:

    In a random group, no ships will spawn that have a more recent AppearanceDate (defined in the Roster files) than the leader ship, even if they are defined to spawn with 100% probability.

    Because most convoys are led by merchants, and most merchants have appearance dates of 1938, only the very old destroyers will spawn as convoy escorts. For example, if a convoy has an assigned escort of a very old destroyer, and a more modern one, only the old one will spawn. Even worse, as the war progresses, there will be no old destroyers defined, only the modern ones that won't spawn. So the convoy will be unescorted. That explains why I regularly find unescorted convoys in 1944.

    You might get a temporary relief if the convoy leader happens to be a more modern merchant (say a Liberty or Victory), since then you will at least get some non-obsolete escorts (a Flower Corvette, for example). But the really good warships appear much later than the latest merchant.

    To ilustrate the problem, I've built a table from the several random groups I've tested. To test, I created a single mission, set in August 1st, 1943, and added a randomly generated group with the ships listed. The fields are:
    <UL TYPE=SQUARE>
    <LI> Ship class and country: self explanatory :-)
    <LI> Appearance: the AppearanceDate defined in data/Roster/Country/Sea/Ship.cfg.
    <LI> Older: Whether or not the ship's Appearance Date is no later than the group leader's.
    <LI> Spawns: Whether or not the ship spawns when I start the mission. Note the leader always spawns, so there is no problem with the groups itself.[/list]

    Now the table:

    <pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
    | Ship Class | Country | Appearance | Older | Spawns |
    |-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
    | DD Evarts (Leader) | American | 19420724 | X | X |
    | DD Fletcher | American | 19420204 | X | X |
    | DD JC Butler | American | 19430616 | | |
    |-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
    | DD JC Butler (Leader) | American | 19430616 | X | X |
    | DD Evarts | American | 19420724 | X | X |
    | DD Fletcher | American | 19420204 | X | X |
    |-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
    | C3 Cargo (Leader) | American | 19380101 | X | X |
    | DD Evarts | American | 19420724 | | |
    | DD Fletcher | American | 19420204 | | |
    | DD JC Butler | American | 19430616 | | |
    |-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
    | C3 Cargo (Leader) | American | 19380101 | X | X |
    | DD Clemson | American | 19180101 | X | X |
    | DD Buckley | American | 19430109 | | |
    | DD Somers | American | 19370313 | X | X |
    |-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
    | DD Buckley (Leader) | American | 19430109 | X | X |
    |-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
    | C3 Cargo (Leader) | American | 19380101 | X | X |
    | DD Buckley | American | 19430109 | | |
    |-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
    | C3 Cargo (Leader) | American | 19380101 | X | X |
    | DD Buckley | American | 19430109 | | |
    | DD Somers | American | 19370313 | X | X |
    |-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
    | Victory Cargo (Leader) | American | 19420228 | X | X |
    | DD Evarts | American | 19420724 | | |
    | DD Fletcher | American | 19420204 | X | X |
    | DD JC Butler | American | 19430616 | | |
    |-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
    | Liberty Cargo (Leader) | American | 19410927 | X | X |
    | DD Evarts | American | 19420724 | | |
    | DD Fletcher | American | 19420204 | | |
    | DD JC Butler | American | 19430616 | | |
    |-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
    | Liberty Cargo (Leader) | British | 19430101 | X | X |
    | DD Evarts | American | 19420724 | X | X |
    | DD Fletcher | American | 19420204 | X | X |
    | DD JC Butler | American | 19430616 | | |
    |-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
    | CVE Casablanca (Leader) | American | 19430708 | X | X |
    | DD Evarts | American | 19420724 | X | X |
    | DD Fletcher | American | 19420204 | X | X |
    | DD JC Butler | American | 19430616 | X | X |
    |-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
    </pre>

    As you can see, all the Appearance dates are earlier than the mission date. And there is a 100% correlation between the older field and the spawn.

    I think this is a huge bug, that makes convoy attacks a lot easier than they should be, and completely destroys the game late in the war for me. So, how do we get around to tell the devs? Being a software developer myself, I expect this will have an easy fix :-)

    Meanwhile, we could work around the bug by modding all the units' AppearanceDate's to the earliest possible date. That would mean we could run into a Fletcher destroyer early in the war, if some patrol uses the "GENERIC Destroyer". But I guess that would the lesser of two evils.

    What to you people think?
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