1. #11
    WTE_Galway's Avatar Senior Member
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    meh ... just ban airplanes. If God meant us to fly we would be born with propellers.

    The Amish were right aircraft (especially cross shaped ones) are unchristian and a heresy.
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  2. #12
    horseback's Avatar Senior Member
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    I’ve actually been working with airport security systems for the past few months and have been in contact with TSA screeners fairly regularly. In this sort of situation, they are just as much a victim of the bureaucrats who come up with this stuff as you or I.

    The vast majority of passengers who go through screening are not anything you’d want to see (trust me), much less frisk, and the method of determining who does get frisked was presented to me as entirely random, unless you get a specific sort of ‘hit’ from another source (which I must leave to your imagination, assuming that you are not a dirty minded little boy).

    Put yourself in the screener’s place. You have to process literally hundreds of people a day, most of whom have only the barest notion of understanding and following simple directions, are already cranky and defensive, and all too willing to blame you for their inconvenience, instead of the loons who have fixated on blowing up airplanes as a way to gain attention to themselves or their ‘cause.’

    The screeners are just as embarrassed about looking at the people going through the whole body imagers (which are now being termed Advanced Imaging Technology for obvious PR reasons) as any of you might be about being viewed in your dainties (or less). There is a tremendous rush to get a more advanced version that will reduce the body image to an animated stick figure and represent suspicious objects with codes and symbols, so that the viewing station won’t have to be put in a secluded room away from the public view and the screener assigned won't occasionally feel the need to have his or her eyes plucked out.

    To paraphrase the immortal words of Han Solo, It’s Not Their Fault.

    Cut the screeners some slack and direct your righteous indignation onto the boobs responsible and the elected representatives who are supposed to provide them with Adult Supervision.

    cheers

    horseback
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  3. #13
    Originally posted by horseback:

    The vast majority of passengers who go through screening are not anything you’d want to see (trust me), much less frisk, and the method of determining who does get frisked was presented to me as entirely random, unless you get a specific sort of ‘hit’ from another source (which I must leave to your imagination, assuming that you are not a dirty minded little boy).
    Are they making all passengers go through the scanners, or just selecting some of them? From what news stories I've read, it seemed to say that all passengers have to go through the scanners, and if they don't want to the only option is the pat-down.

    Cut the screeners some slack and direct your righteous indignation onto the boobs responsible and the elected representatives who are supposed to provide them with Adult Supervision.

    I don't care about the screeners, they are just doing what they are ordered to do, and I haven't said anything against them. Though there will be screeners who abuse the ability to look at naked people and to grope people, be sure. I'm just angry about this policy and want to see it overturned.
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  4. #14
    erco415's Avatar Senior Member
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    When you get to the airport, two things could happen 1)They have a traditional metal detector lane open and you go about your travel with a minimum of fuss. 2)They only have the Nude-O-Matic open and you'll have to decide if you'd rather be scanned or patted down. Generally speaking, I think you're ahead with the pat down.

    This issue has been gaining steam over the last few weeks, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the busier airports making damn sure they have metal detector lanes open. The Air Line Pilot's Association and the Allied Pilot's Association have both advised their members not to go through the scanners, and there are plans for a National Opt-Out Day on Nov 24th. Seeing as I have to airline fairly often, I've been dealing with this issue for some time now, and I always choose the metal detector or the pat down.

    From what I've read, the vast majority of the screeners are doing a reasonably professional job with the pat downs, but there are always the few that ruin the reputation of the rest. Penn, of Penn and Teller, had a bad experience at the Las Vegas airport that he recounts here and a software engineer, John Tyner, caught his experience with his cell phone camera which can be found all over the web now ( here's one place to see it ). My own experience has been mixed- I've been lucky to avoid the scanner with it's lousy choice of bad options, but for once I did have to opt out and the experience was seemingly designed to humiliate the person opting out and the pat down -really a frisking- was pretty rough, especially the part where the guy grabbed my balls without warning, that wasn't much fun. Joe Sharkey, who writes for the New York Times, talked about his opt out experiences here. I emailed Joe, who has been getting a avalanche of mail on the subject, to offer my experience, and in his reply he shared the following:

    "Nothing makes me shake my head more sadly than the stupidity of
    screeners hassling pilots who will shortly be at the controls of the
    airplane. My favorite from a pilot is him being told while being
    frisked at security that they had to make sure he didn't carry on
    anything that would allow him to take over the plane."

    This is high on my WTF list. But it highlights the major failing of our airport security drama- that none of it can detect the most dangerous thing out there- bad intent. This is where behavioral profiling would work (and if you're not familiar, read Dan Korem's excellent "The Art Of Profiling"), a good profiler seems a mind reader, hell, IS a mind reader and could save the travelling public a lot of grief and actually catch the bad guys before they got on the plane.
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  5. #15
    WTE_Galway's Avatar Senior Member
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    The issue as presented on television in Australia was that once you turned up at the airport the scan/pat-down was compulsory even if you then opted not to fly.

    The impression given by the Australian press was that even if you decided the procedure was too intrusive and decided against taking the flight you were still required to submit to the procedure before leaving the airport or be arrested.
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  6. #16
    mortoma's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
    The issue as presented on television in Australia was that once you turned up at the airport the scan/pat-down was compulsory even if you then opted not to fly.

    The impression given by the Australian press was that even if you decided the procedure was too intrusive and decided against taking the flight you were still required to submit to the procedure before leaving the airport or be arrested.
    Probably not the case if you don't get in the line for security to go to the gate. Even then, if you left the line before they check your ID you'd be OK. Once you submit to the ID check just before the security lanes, then they have you and it's most likely too late.

    Personally, I don't care about going into the x-ray machines, doesn't bother me a bit. If I were a woman then it might be different. But why would a guy care? Besides, these people probably don't know me anyway. I'd be just another one of the cattle being herded through the security line, I don't care and neither do they.
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  7. #17
    This is high on my WTF list. But it highlights the major failing of our airport security drama- that none of it can detect the most dangerous thing out there- bad intent. This is where behavioral profiling would work (and if you're not familiar, read Dan Korem's excellent "The Art Of Profiling"), a good profiler seems a mind reader, hell, IS a mind reader and could save the travelling public a lot of grief and actually catch the bad guys before they got on the plane.
    Once when I was in college I went on a trip to Israel and when I was checking in for my flight back to the US, I went through the notorious Israeli security. Basically it entailed a uniformed security person asking me a bunch of very direct questions about where I'd been, what I'd done, etc. At the time many people told me that this policy was very effective in stopping terrorism. This was in 1998 so I don't know if they still do that. Often US customs officials back in the US will ask you what you'd done on your trip and be gruff and direct about it, but nothing like what that Israeli security person did. El Al (the main Israeli airline) was notorious for having even more stringent boarding policies.

    I don't see why we can't do that kind of thing, I would imagine people would prefer a short interrogation over a stranger groping them or looking at a nude body scan.
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  8. #18
    erco415's Avatar Senior Member
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    One of my fellow pilots has also traveled to Israel, and on his way home was asked to participate in the training of new airport security personnel by simply placing an object in his suitcase. The newb screener was supposed to discover that he was carrying an object simply by questioning him, and failed, which brought about a furious tongue-lashing from his supervisor/trainer. But discovering this sort of thing by asking a few simple questions is well within the capabilities of trained profilers.
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  9. #19
    To all of American Flyer's BOO
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  10. #20
    erco415's Avatar Senior Member
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    As reported by Gizmodo, this image was the desktop on a TSA computer in Indianapolis:
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