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Member
If flying is SO EASY, it explain why real pilots need to fly x hours on training plane (very easy in flying compare to fighters), x hours on combat plane with standard manouvers, x hours on fighters with combat, and still have accidents during flying, landing, take off...
I see few difficulties in games, that are not realistic and never be (like feeling the plane through your ****). But if somebody will tell me, that guy who never played a sim game, can just sit in a cocpit, start, do some aerobatics and land, then i wont belive you sorry. Just my point of view.
Part of book (translated couse its in polish):
Waclaw Krol: I fought under France sky.
He was starting on simple gliders (small jumps in hill), then flying a glider shooting in a gum (pulled by horses) from hill and manage to have short flies, then they flew on engine plane (with instructor), then on other type of training plane, then on p7, and after that on p11c (which was very capable and easy controls plane, with very good stall characteristic). Everybody can fly a plane, shure, and it is quite easy, shure, if you already know what to do and you are doing it automaticly, like driving a car is easy, couse you dont think about changing gear, you just do it. But until you start doing it automaticly you have to learn this, not just put into a plane and fly and shoot down others...
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Junior Member
Oleg,
I for one, appreciate all of the hard work that everyone has been doing. As a "Casual" user who has become hooked on all of the IL-2 series flight simulations, it has become very apparent that that Oleg and 1C:Maddox Games have far exceeded any other simulation out there. All of us need to "Stop the Whining" and realize that this is a $40 game that is worth every penny, and take this into consideration when we start complaining about minutae! Name one other flight sim. Publisher/programmer that :
1. personally replies to user complaints
2. puts out new planes, FM's, etc., on an almost continual basis.
3. puts up with all the whining
4. doesn't charge extra for every upgrade
Happy New Year to Oleg, and the whole crew at 1C:Maddox games and thanks for a great game.
Paul
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Member
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:
3.. Flying won't become more complicated. It's only complicated to fly in the "trigger" or table-based or arcade flight simulators. I'm mentioning arcade here who those don't see it as such and do not see the physics errors which go against a pilot's nature. It's only easy to fly arcade for those who don't know how an aircraft really flies, or in short physics and a bit of aerodynamics. For example, I see absolutely disastrous errors in physics modeling in some sims, which makes it very difficult for me to fly and _understand_ as an aviation engineer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
okay, you was not allowed to say CFS series, so i will,
, yes theres been worse than CFS tho. And yes regarding arcade, im not a bad pilot on full real, but on arcade settings im dead, i cannot understand no stalls/spins, it really messes with my mojo.
Makes me really happy to see a Senior Aeronautical Engineer such as yourself being put to excellent use creating a SIMULATION for everyone to enjoy. 
Shrike
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Banned
Oleg, you do as you see fit with FB, PF and BoB. They are your creations and we as a whole appreciate everything you all have done for us with these sims... I'll not call them games as they are about as real as anyone can get with the FMs and other goodies.
Don't let the whiners get you down. Those of us that might seem to be whining, don't intend our questions to be that way. If there was anything out there that was better than FB and PF, you wouldn't see as many here on the forums or flying your sims as you do now. So to me, you and 1C have done something right, which no one else has come close too so far. Keep up the great work, we're with you 100%.
~S!~
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Senior Member
CyC_AnD:
I for one sure would like if we could keep that line of thought out of this thread. I certainly agree with you, and I see that it's fact on a daily basis, nevertheless, not all here are really equiped to make such evaluations, and I think it's best avoided.
I for one think Oleg can build a sim pretty well, and has a feel for how things should and shouldn't be, so for now I will just submit info and hope it gets looked at. In qualitative issues this is just about all that we can do. Otherwise there is fear of bringing out the unsavories who destroy otherwise valuable information.
The simple facts are that physical laws are very repeatable in the real world, and at the same time CPU and code-writing intensive. It isn't an easy vs. hard debate, the facts are that there can always be more computation of things that we know are critical factors in the real world of aviation. In fact, many of these things neither engineers nor pilots understand with complete certainty. That makes simulating it a real challenge. Oleg has the best FM going to date, I am glad that he will continue to add the subtle details to keep it that way. Other smaller sim designers have attempted such things like torque and p-factor, but have created atypical behaviour in the aircraft, and then used this to try to make it's users beleive that if it's "harder it must be more real". It is true that ground operations, takeoff and landing should be "harder" in some aspects, but overall that type of thinking has no place in a sim with the resources to get it right. That hard=more realistic thing is not the way to look at it. Though for now much of what you must do to fly on the limits of aircraft performance is excluded from sims, but that is changing with every patch!
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Senior Member
Hi, EcoDragon and Happy New Year 
for your post:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TX-EcoDragon:
One thing I wonder about though, it appears that the plane is flying much faster than the speedbar indicates. . . if you use F3 view you will see what I mean. using 1/2 time looks right. This might also explain why the aircraft maintains such a fast descent rate and rotation rate during the spin/spiral. Is this just an artifact of using the PF engine?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes I see that too and I have a question, which one (IL2 original, FB/PF ,or leaked track ) seem close to a real from your experience? and from a difference plane has a difference stall characteristic ?
Regards,
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Senior Member
I would say the 190 A5 in late AEP was probably the best I've ever seen in a sim regarding spin dynamics. As far as that track goes, I heard that the track you see here may not be using all aspects of the FM, the inertia character may be a little exaggerated relative to the other forces. But I am the wrong person to say for sure. I bet Oleg knows though ;-)
There is a little more aerodynamic damping and weathervaning effects in the real world than you see in that track, which result in less pronounced wobble (maybe at half speed the wobble isn't so obvious) but IMHO it looks to me like once this is all finalized you should have the best spin modeling out there and an improvement over what we have now!
Best Wishes for a Happy New Year all!
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Member
Yes, I know that CPU limitations and all that thing. I know that it my post maybe is thing to other topic. But I'm laughing when ppl usually talk that "harder doesnt mean more realistic" and ending discussion on that sentence. I wont tell this is true (harder=more real), but we shouldnt compare more or less harder to other sims (including PF to BoB), couse it will be more complex right? So it can be more harder then now, but it doesnt mean it will be harder then in real life... For me it isnt so important to have hardest as you can get. I want to see real DM, and feel of the plane soul, feel big difference in every plane (in BoB it wont be much planes, so they should differ much: vide bf vs hurri). Im glad that they doing something in FM department not only graphic. After looking to those tracks, i see some improvements (not looking at zoom climb
). For example watch landing, tree point landing is more real in those tracks, mass distribution is better then what we had to this time. So im optymistic, Im a tiny part of BoB addon (www.9-1939.pl), so I have hope for very good sim. This sentence about real=not hard doesnt have sense for me. Everyone has right to have its vote about smthg, I have mine like i wrote. OK im going with my dog for a walk couse im starting to write same things twice :P
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Senior Member
Hmmm if I can read with understanding this new FM stuff could supposedly be added in PF some time in the future.IMO this should only be done without looking at every single aircraft FM issue and should only be a strict alfa patch so anyone who complains will STFU because it is not eaven secondarily meant for PF.I`d like to check what new FM implementation changes but I certainly think that any more effort about it is a loss of resources.IMO this should server a general purpose of testing it by a larger public and correct given aspects for future BoB game.
Awaiting Ju88 with patience
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Senior Member
EcoDragon , Thanks for replay 
"Inertia has always been and is a part of the IL-2 series"
after I understand for what is the Inertia when read in HQ then remine me when play IL-2 first series when I pull nose up from drive or after recover from stall I see my plane's nose point over horizontal when pull up but I still lose altitude fast from Inertia force and G-force and made me crash the ground .... may be our old friends still remember about this 
seem Inertia very complex with alot of force like airspeed , g-force , weight of plane ( from drive and zoom up) and AOA so if I don't understand in Inertia it's mean I don't understand in FM
the funny thing is I/we was automatic learn to hand on Inertia since I/we play IL-2 but still don't know that was called "Inertia" 
"There is a little more aerodynamic damping and weathervaning effects in the real world than you see in that track"
yes , I agree that EcoDragon 
to fly a real plane is not easy,I think, if we don't understand about aerodynamic how plane can fly and how plane can crash in a difference type. and some part take alot of time to lean and understand it ...
"hard" is not defficult but don't understand is "difficult" .
S!