1. #11
    Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
    There are many accounts you don't show that don't paint the 109 as those.
    Blow them off as incorrect.

    Good thing the planes are not modelled by stories but rather original test documents.

    It is up to the player to find out how to fly the models right. All the time for years
    have the best sims pulled away from bank and yank, one formula fits all FM's but this
    series has been raising the bar more every time.

    Read that first quote again and ask yourself if he is speaking of flat turn combat.

    i dont have to ask my self

    But i found rather very interesting that the MYTHE of the bf 109 was not a turn fighter at al is not treu , Like manny thinks here who fly's il-2

    in real live ,and i saw the bf 109 at airshow oppenheim type G-4

    was very manouverbal


    and i think the one's who flew against and with it are more in place to say that is was a very good turn fighter then any of use here

    so Maxgunz i now its very hard to exept it but the words of the pilots who flew them i believe 100%

    And not some statements from test pilots who didned now how to fly a captured airplane ,in this case a bf 109
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  2. #12
    Jaws2002's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally posted by S.taibanzai:
    And not some statements from test pilots who didned now how to fly a captured airplane ,in this case a bf 109
    90% of the LW pilots in 44'-45 that flew 109 didn't do better then those british test pilots.
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  3. #13
    Originally posted by Jaws2002:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by S.taibanzai:
    And not some statements from test pilots who didned now how to fly a captured airplane ,in this case a bf 109
    90% of the LW pilots in 44'-45 that flew 109 didn't do better then those british test pilots. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


    Yep 100% right

    Mostly rookies who didend have good or proper training deu to lack of time

    Man can you imagine how those guys felt ?!!!

    just trow in to combat if you live long enouf

    that is your training boys
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  4. #14
    ploughman's Avatar Senior Member
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    I don't know where you get the idea that the 109 wasn't a turn fighter. Almost all the literature I've ever read that extends beyond a parapraphs description of the BoB says the 109 was a turn fighter and in the right hands could out turn or turn with a Spitfire, but the Spit was an easier plane to fly than the 109 so it flattered the inexperienced pilot while the 109 was hard on noobs and punished them. An experienced 109 pilot who new his ride knew he was flying a very capable aircraft that could turn with virtually anything in the sky if properly flown.
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  5. #15
    HayateAce's Avatar Banned
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    Official German stance on the Yak3:

    AVOID any combat with a Yak aircraft lacking the front radiator.

    Jak3 eat your lunch, as it did in WW2. Bf109 lost it's war and it's turn was beaten by many aircraft.

    Here, have a gander to a real dogfighter:

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  6. #16
    Oh nice wish HayateAce would not miss out important part of this Order .) was it avoid df with new yak under 5000 or 6000 m ? And which type of plane was used as mainstay for LW at this order ?

    The yak3 reached 720 km/h at 6 k that has not much to do with turning when you avoid dfs you cant run escape from .
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  7. #17
    ICDP's Avatar Senior Member
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    The Yak-3 would beat any contempory fighter in any airforce in a dogfight (1944).
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  8. #18
    horseback's Avatar Senior Member
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    The question was not whether the 109 had superior maneuverability, but whether its pilots used the best tactics for it in a given situation.

    In most situations, the average 109 pilot found the classic 'zoom and boom' tactics both safer and more rewarding than going in circles with the more numerous enemy aircraft it often encountered.

    Pilots who were experienced and gifted, like Marseille and Rall, were able to fully exploit the 109's potential even in a target-rich environment, but they were exceptions rather than the rule, even in the early war period. The development of energy conserving team tactics, permitted by the simultaneous development of high performance aircraft and reliable radio communications, coupled with the Messerschmitt fighter's ability to adapt to more powerful engines and armament during wartime had more to do with the number of high-scoring pilots flying it than the aircraft's maneuvering superiority over its contemporaries.

    cheers

    horseback
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  9. #19
    F19_Ob's Avatar Senior Member
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    The 109 sure could turn well enough for dogfights with many planes although they sometimes couldn't outturn them horisontally. The 109 was especially good with vertical elements wich many allied planes couldn't handle equally well because of slower accelleration and worser climb. Hurricanes and p40 and p39 for example.
    This is stated by many pilots on all sides of the conflict.

    However, many german pilots used the climb, speed and accelleration for safer slashing attacks and then climbed away (BnZ). This tactic made good use of it strenghts and also allowed them to chose to attack or disengage at will, wich is much harder if one sacrifices the energy for turningcombat.
    Later in the war when the allied got faster fighters the 109 had a much harder time. Although planes like p47 and p51 wasn't so good turners they could now catch the 109's in climbs and dives aswell as level flight.

    Marseille perhaps was one of the most famous of the successful turnfighters in the 109 and he often attacked a group of fighters like spits or p40's alone, leaving his wingman as topcover. He counted on the surprize in his attacks but still often outturned his victims.
    Many of his collegues didn't at all adopt his tactics since they thought them to dangerous and risky for the attacker.

    a few thoughts
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  10. #20
    stathem's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally posted by BigganD:
    Nice post S.taibanzai !
    Wonder why most of the big aces were germans. Me109 must have been a great plane.

    Those who win a war can change the true facts..
    This needs to be put to bed every time it crops up.

    1) Luftwaffe pilots flew day in day out until they were killed, physically or psycologically destroyed, or the War ended. Western allied pilots flew tours and were rotated out of the firing line after a set number of sorties or hours to train new pilots or other useful work. I wonder which was the most effective tactic, considering the outcome. Soviet pilots had a far more rigorous proceedure to be awarded kills, and different priorites regarding air combat.

    2) For most of the War the Luftwaffe faced superior numbers on most fronts. Individual pilots thus had a far greater chance of meeting enemy planes on any given sortie than allied pilots.

    3) Most if not all of the top scorers alluded to in the intial post made the bulk of their kills during their "Happy time" before the VVS got it's act together. Of course those that survived continued to make kills since by then they had a wealth of experience. 109's were the main fighter type at this time, the newer and superior 190 being reserved for the JG's facing a harder time over northern Europe. The top Experten did not make their name flying the lottery that was heavy bomber intercept, and when they faced it, they were depleted very quickly.

    3) The Nazi warrior-hero ethic placed great emphasis on the sheer number of kills made to the exclusion of all else, as opposed to the success of mission goals. (and according to Golodnikov were rewarded fiscally for kills made.)

    The facts as stated say nothing about the superiority or otherwise of the 109 or it's pilots. Any competitive fighter (Spifire, Lavotchkin, P-47 to name but few) would have achieved the same results under the same system. Similarly any "ace" pilot from any airforce (Buerling, Kohzedub, Doe, Boyington) would have run up similar scores under such a system.

    I think I'll save this and post it every time it comes up.
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