1. #91
    hop2002's Avatar Senior Member
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    I don't think German culture had any effect on the skills of the pilots, I do think it had an effect on the tactics of the Luftwaffe, and the tactics are what made for the high scoring pilots.

    Stephen Bungay, The Most Dangerous Enemy, goes in to the Luftwaffe tactics:

    "And of these Hauptmann Tietzen, my Staffel commander alone has nineteen! I witnessed most of his kills. It is fantastic, the way he shoots. He is the boss, he moves us into position and selects the vicâ¬tims, and we have to do little more than cover him. There is a wonderful sense of teamwork in the Staffel. With his twentieth victory, the Ritterkreuz will be due. For me, the award of the Iron Cross, First Class, has been imminent since my fourth kill."

    Leutnant Hans-Otto Lessing, writing to his parents.

    The Luftwaffe tactics were for a few pilots to score the kills, the rest were there to support them.

    But I think you know what happened to "point *****s" in a squad. No one wants to fly with them. Usually the Squad commander forced them to come down to earth and fly with teamplay.
    I think the problem was the "score *****" was often the man in charge.

    Again from Bungay:

    "This was part of the Luftwaffe's emphasis on individual stardom and it had some negative aspects. At the margin, some of the most successful gave the impression that they were after their own glory rather than the success of the unit, and the view became widespread that some of them were building their scores at the expense of their protecting wingmen, the poor old 'Katschmareks'. Ulrich Steinhilper reports on such discussions in JG52 which increased in frequency as the battle continued:
    The debates nearly always came back to the subject of battle honours and decorations, mostly prompted by the NCOs who felt more aggrieved than the officers. Why was it, they would ask so often, that the decorations are, in the main, only handed out to those with the highest scores? Wasn't it clear that it was those who were flying ahead and insisting on strong formation discipline around them who were also running up the highest personal scores - almost exactly matched by the losses from their own formations - losing one Katschmarek after another for another white stripe on the tail of their aircraft? And who was it who was suffering the most, they would ask. Of course, it was the NCOs who generally flew at the rear or on the flanks.
    Those known to be plagued by a chronic desire to have a Knight's Cross and its various accoutrements (Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds) dangling around their necks were said to be suffering from “Halsweh†(a sore throat). Adolf Galland was one well known sufferer, and he used his position first as Gruppenkomandeur of III/JG26 then as Kommodore of the whole Geschwader to hand pick his wingmen."
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  2. #92
    p1ngu666's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally posted by mynameisroland:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
    horta, kinda agree with u, but the guy in question hadnt had contact in 53 ops, so he had NO opertunity to shoot down any enemy. he then gets 5 in his first contact, personaly i think thats good going. u need to have contact with the enemy to score, german experten got that, and where good and lucky.

    LW had two types aprently, the experten, who where as good as your gonna get pretty much, and the rest who wherent that good.

    there where several allied aces who had a better sortie/kill ratio than say heartman aswell.

    fact is LW was beaten. even in the end where they seemed to fly around in large groups, still wouldnt win engaugements as much as they should have, ie hardly ever
    What engagements are you talking about Pingu?

    You must have forgot the Schweinfurt raids or maybe the Dieppe raid or perhaps even the first stages of operation Barabarossa. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    badly mauled some unprotected bombers, dieppe raid the RAF kept up the air umbrella and protected the ships etc well from what ive heard.

    first stages or barabarossa went very well, dont surpose the fear of stalin helped the ppl in command.

    mid to late war mostly, plus theres the BOB and malta too. the polish put up a very good fight also, in p11's </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


    You ought to read up on the Dieppe raid again if your under the impression the RAF got anything other than a hiding taht day.

    The Luftwaffe - like the whole german armed forces - had an overall KD ratio of something like 4 - 1. Please enlighten me what multiple engagements are you talking about where they outnumbered the enemy in a fighter vs fighter encounter and came off the worse.

    With regards to Kills to sortie ratio Hartmann was no where near the top of the list check out some of the other aces like Rall or even Lambert and you will see some very impressive scores per missions.

    Going back to Hartmann it is impressive, you have to admit, going in to combat over 1500 times in an 'inferior' aircraft , in an 'inferior' airforce and not getting killed. Bet he loved how he always had the 'luck' of meeting the enemy and that time he was outnumbered 12 to 1 by Mustangs. I suppose using your logic Hartmann outnumbered the enemy on that occasion too? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Did the air umbrella break? where 100s of ships sunk?

    keeping the ships, and the 1000s of men on them safe was more important.

    and im going from stuff in clostermans book and other stuff ive read.

    german experten had luck not only in combat, but to survive mechincal faliure, acciedents etc.

    much like schumi in F1 they come out really well 90% of the time.
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  3. #93
    You should read Steinhilper, the man had a giant chip on his shoulder. It has been a while, but if I remember correctly, he hardly got along with the people he served with and his COs did not hide their dislike for him.

    This is but one side of the story and not a very nuanced one at that, since there are plenty of biographies describing how green pilots were helped by experienced ones to gtet their feel for combat, so I won't start quoting them.

    Besides does the first quote strike you as something negative?

    There is a wonderful sense of teamwork in the Staffel

    Perhaps letting the best shooter go for the kill isn't that crazy if the team wins.
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  4. #94
    The RAF took a beating at Dieppe even with far superior numbers.

    LW at Dieppe
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  5. #95
    stathem's Avatar Senior Member
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    Hop, thanks.

    Originally posted by Big_Bad_Wulf:
    I wrote that, because I nearly felt offended by the assumption "Wulf may not have been as well informed". Be sure, I am.
    Be sure, we germans are very well informed about what happend in the 3rd Reich(there may be exceptions like everywhere).
    (I've edited the quote purely for reasons of space, be sure I've read it all carefully )

    Hi Wulf,

    I apologise if you were offended, none was meant. Absolutley there is no need for a flame war. I didn't mean to imply that you know nothing about the politics of Germany 1920-1945. In my replies there is no political intent whatsoever. As you suggest, political discussions are pretty much off the limits on here.

    When I say you 'may not have been as well informed" I was talking specifically about your understanding of the 'Nazi warrior-hero ethic' (the term is quoted by Bungay, but is probably coined by an earlier writer), as it appiled to the Jagdwaffe. I drew this conculsion because you disputed it's existence. Maybe my use of the term is too emotive, but I can't think of a better way of putting it. I sincerely hope that these discussions will provoke you to reading more about the subject. The more we all read and discuss and debate, the better the world wil be.

    It's not quite a tactical doctrine, but Luftwaffe tactical doctrine cannot be separated from it. It also has elements of being a motivational tool. I'm not discussing it in terms of it's politcal message, nor disparaging Germans either past or present. I was quoting it as a contributing reason why some Jagdwaffe pilots ran up enormous kill totals. It catergorically doesn't mean that all Luftwaffe pilots were Nazis - far from it. We know as much about it from the pilots that were disaffected by it as from anywhere.

    Now some people, and after learning about it, you may become one, will argue that it was the correct doctrine to use (not the Nazi part, the warrior-hero part.) That's fair enough, and we could debate that and it would be an interesting discussion.

    Enough already, time to go.

    I sincerely hope this has helped clear things up. If you can get a translation of the book quoted by hop above and you are interested (particulary with BoB coming soon ) give it a go, it's a great, and I think, very fair, treatment of the BoB.

    http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/englis...ikov/part1.htm

    Additionally, if you have time, check out what Golodnikov has to say.

    Salute, Wulf, see you around

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  6. #96
    Originally posted by hop2002:
    I don't think German culture had any effect on the skills of the pilots, I do think it had an effect on the tactics of the Luftwaffe, and the tactics are what made for the high scoring pilots.

    Hmmm, gliding was 'the' national sport in Germany in the `30s, part of the culture if you like, so it was obviously adventageous to make young men into fighter pilots who already know the basics and had a lot of practice.

    They had a strong military culture, perhaps more than other continental countries thanks to the prussian heritage - they were raised in a culture with the tradition of citizens having obligation to serve the country in the armed forces, and where progression in rank was a matter of ability alone and not birth. Certainly that was an advantage, compared to, say, countries where easily nobody from your family had served as soldier for generation due to the lack of tradition of a conscript army (a few mercenaries doing the job), which anyway was often lead by the, to put it mildly most incompetent young titans of the aristocracy, after buying(!!!) their rank as a major so to avoid the boring process of working your way up, and who were sent into the low-prestige army by their family because they were the least capable within that family.



    The Luftwaffe tactics were for a few pilots to score the kills, the rest were there to support them.
    The LW had less fighter pilots but more kills in total than others, so the claim is silly.

    It was not a LW tactic, it was the tactic of all effectively organized airforce in WW2.

    It makes no sense to let the rookies shoot the sky instead of planes while they prove easy pickings for the enemy`s more experienced pilots because they don`t know when to disengage, they don`t know how to check their six, or how to make deflection shootings. Simliarly it doesn`t make sense to let rookies work in pairs until they know their stuff.

    As a wingman, they could learn in process, and more importantly, survive long enough util they were ready to enter combat on their own. Until then, they could protect the more experienced pilot who had much better chances anyway of succeeding in his mission of shooting down enemy planes, and both of them has a seperate job he can fully concentrate on. Even Eric Hartmann started as a wingman. He finished as Major, and being the ace of aces. pretty much every successfull LW pilot climbed the same ladder.

    It`s called team tactics and the same manpower management on micro level was employed in every major army in all history : the old veteran thought the young ones about the craft and kept an eye on them so they won`t kill themselves in some silly way.
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  7. #97
    horseback's Avatar Senior Member
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    Kurfurst,

    I think the picture stetham was trying to portray was one where certain 'stars' used their supporting cast as 'beaters' for game at best, and as bait on a regular basis. There were a few earlier references to large numbers of wingmen lost by certain individuals. There was an earlier post citing experienced NCO pilots in near rebellion because they were being used in this way. This may be why Hartmann was held in high regard--he always brought his wingman back.

    I'll concede that similar tactics and mindsets could be found in Allied ranks, but in general, where you find a unit with a high number of victories, you'll find a leadership with a concern for everyone getting into the fight rather than funneling prey to a select few.

    Hub Zemke and David McCampbell are outstanding American fighter leaders who successfully taught and led other aces, and I believe Trautloft might also fit into that mold.

    cheers

    horseback
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  8. #98
    p1ngu666's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally posted by faustnik:
    The RAF took a beating at Dieppe even with far superior numbers.

    LW at Dieppe
    yeah they didnt do too well, but seems they got 2 small boats from that, so the raf seemed to have kept the ships safe
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  9. #99
    Originally posted by p1ngu666:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
    The RAF took a beating at Dieppe even with far superior numbers.

    LW at Dieppe
    yeah they didnt do too well, but seems they got 2 small boats from that, so the raf seemed to have kept the ships safe </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The same can't be said for the poor Canadians on the beaches.
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