DB 605A-1 engine (Wk-Nr 00701990) The work was completed at the Sindelfingen Daimler-Benz factory, near Echterdingen.Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Thats a Spitfire with a DB601 or a 603 (I can't remember) in it.
Mmmm how to improve the Spitfire. Some of the improvements were made postwar in the Mark 21/22. Given that it was say...1943. I'd take the Mark VIII, redesign the wings with a more clipped style but with similar attributes overall, wider track undercarriage and bubble canopy. Other than that...the Spitfire had most of the formula right except for maybe some of its drag profiles which are sort of hard to help without it being a new plane from the start. Impossible to mount nose guns with the Merlin which takes up all the space so not many options for guns except to keep them where they are...maybe Hispano Mark V...if they were around. I know some Seafire's had them.
Ok, pet project, so its a long list and it really depends on where you start. If you start early enough you can do this to the Mk I without major structural changes (all of these chages were incorporated into the Spitfire family at some point):
Metal alierons,
Blown hood,
Pilot and cockpit armour, internal bulletproof front screen,
Both foward tanks are self sealing,
Rotol CSP,
Merlin II/III at +12.5 lbs
Multi-ejector exhausts, instead of fishtail (didnt happen until 1942, but they were being trialed in 1939)
Side mounted Hispanos with belt feed,
Retractable tail wheel
Wheel well covers
All these changes would add at last 15-20 mph to a Mk I/II speed, and substantially reduce drag Multi ejectors are good for an extra 3-4, new windscreen for 5-6, retractable tail wheel for 4 mph, wheel well covers for up to 10 mph. However, the Spit is about 500 lbs or more heavier and the drag from the cannon make it about 4 mph slower.
If you get a little more ambitious, then you can go for some structural changes:
Reposition radiatiors slightly foward and further and deeper into wing, to better take advantage of Meredith effect. Can't use a Mustang style radiator as it hasn't been invented yet.
Install enlarged, Frieze type alierons like on the Mk 21 (better roll at high speed)
Change the angle of front windscreen (post war studies show it to be a suction point, creating drag.)
New fuel tanks: Foward tanks go from 85 to 95 gallons capacity, add a rear 30 gallon tank in early marks and 60 gallon tank in later marks, add 2 x 11 or 18 gallon integrat fuel tanks. Takes internal capacity from 85 gallon up to a maximum of 153 gallons.
Add wider track landing gear.
I'd propose an 'alternate history' slightly for the Spitfire:
Keep the Mk I and II, but build start building the Mk III at the end of 1940 at the Hatfield plant (in favour of the Mk V which it had to retool to build anyway).
The Mk III was a Spitfire II airframe with significant improvements:
Two speed, single stage Merlin XX (good for 385 - 400 mph top speed)
95 gal fuel
Stronger airframe
Wider track landing rear with new struts and a more foward angle (making it easier to three point the landing)
Retractable tail wheel
Wheel well covers.
Clipped wings.
To this i'd add a 30 gal rear fuselage tank, giving it 125 gal internal fuel and about 35% better range than Mk I/II (say 650-700 miles on internal fuel, roughly giving a 250 mile combat radius).
The Mk III was actually ordered (1,000 ordered in late 1940) but it was canned by the Air Ministry, who saw it as taking too long to produce (about 25% more man hours than a Mk I/II). They favoured more squadrons than fewer squadrons of slightly more effectiveness.
I'd popose going with a Mk V and Mk III combination for 1941, converting Mk I/II squadrons to Mk III aircraft and putting new squadrons in Mk II/Vs. The RAF could use new build Mk IIs airframes from the Supermarine works (400 built by June 1941) to convert to into Mk Vs for the first half of 1941.
The Mk V force would be replaced as quickly as possible through 1942 while the Mk IX came along. Then the RAF would use the Mk IX (which, at this point in my alternate history, would really be more like a Mk VIII or Mk VII) at high alt and the Mk III at low alt (repeating the Mk V/Mk IX partnership story).
The Mk III could be converted to low altitude speciality missions with dropped blower and a Merlin 24 putting out 1780 hp (which would make it faster than a Merlin 66 engined LF IX below 12,000 feet).
I'd put the Mk XII into longer term production, to take over from the Mk III at low alt, with 10-12 squadrons ready by early 1944 to complement the Typhoon at low alt (instead of the 100 produced/2 squadrons operational in 1943 in real life). Production would be approximately 600-800. First 50 or so produced with Griffon IIB/III, most with the Griffon IV and then the final 200 or so with the more powerful Griffon VI. Bomb shackles on the wings would be reinforced, giving clearance for 3 x 500 lbrs (two on wings, one on the centreline), making it more useful for short range attack missions.
Excellent suggestions ImpOriginally posted by ImpStarDuece:
Ok, pet project, so its a long list and it really depends on where you start. If you start early enough you can do this to the Mk I without major structural changes (all of these chages were incorporated into the Spitfire family at some point):
Metal alierons,
Blown hood,
Pilot and cockpit armour, internal bulletproof front screen,
Both foward tanks are self sealing,
Rotol CSP,
Merlin II/III at +12.5 lbs
Multi-ejector exhausts, instead of fishtail (didnt happen until 1942, but they were being trialed in 1939)
Side mounted Hispanos with belt feed,
Retractable tail wheel
Wheel well covers
All these changes would add at last 15-20 mph to a Mk I/II speed, and substantially reduce drag Multi ejectors are good for an extra 3-4, new windscreen for 5-6, retractable tail wheel for 4 mph, wheel well covers for up to 10 mph. However, the Spit is about 500 lbs or more heavier and the drag from the cannon make it about 4 mph slower.
If you get a little more ambitious, then you can go for some structural changes:
Reposition radiatiors slightly foward and further and deeper into wing, to better take advantage of Meredith effect. Can't use a Mustang style radiator as it hasn't been invented yet.
Install enlarged, Frieze type alierons like on the Mk 21 (better roll at high speed)
Change the angle of front windscreen (post war studies show it to be a suction point, creating drag.)
New fuel tanks: Foward tanks go from 85 to 95 gallons capacity, add a rear 30 gallon tank in early marks and 60 gallon tank in later marks, add 2 x 11 or 18 gallon integrat fuel tanks. Takes internal capacity from 85 gallon up to a maximum of 153 gallons.
Add wider track landing gear.
I'd propose an 'alternate history' slightly for the Spitfire:
Keep the Mk I and II, but build start building the Mk III at the end of 1940 at the Hatfield plant (in favour of the Mk V which it had to retool to build anyway).
The Mk III was a Spitfire II airframe with significant improvements:
Two speed, single stage Merlin XX (good for 385 - 400 mph top speed)
95 gal fuel
Stronger airframe
Wider track landing rear with new struts and a more foward angle (making it easier to three point the landing)
Retractable tail wheel
Wheel well covers.
Clipped wings.
To this i'd add a 30 gal rear fuselage tank, giving it 125 gal internal fuel and about 35% better range than Mk I/II (say 650-700 miles on internal fuel, roughly giving a 250 mile combat radius).
The Mk III was actually ordered (1,000 ordered in late 1940) but it was canned by the Air Ministry, who saw it as taking too long to produce (about 25% more man hours than a Mk I/II). They favoured more squadrons than fewer squadrons of slightly more effectiveness.
I'd popose going with a Mk V and Mk III combination for 1941, converting Mk I/II squadrons to Mk III aircraft and putting new squadrons in Mk II/Vs. The RAF could use new build Mk IIs airframes from the Supermarine works (400 built by June 1941) to convert to into Mk Vs for the first half of 1941.
The Mk V force would be replaced as quickly as possible through 1942 while the Mk IX came along. Then the RAF would use the Mk IX (which, at this point in my alternate history, would really be more like a Mk VIII or Mk VII) at high alt and the Mk III at low alt (repeating the Mk V/Mk IX partnership story).
The Mk III could be converted to low altitude speciality missions with dropped blower and a Merlin 24 putting out 1780 hp (which would make it faster than a Merlin 66 engined LF IX below 12,000 feet).
I'd put the Mk XII into longer term production, to take over from the Mk III at low alt, with 10-12 squadrons ready by early 1944 to complement the Typhoon at low alt (instead of the 100 produced/2 squadrons operational in 1943 in real life). Production would be approximately 600-800. First 50 or so produced with Griffon IIB/III, most with the Griffon IV and then the final 200 or so with the more powerful Griffon VI. Bomb shackles on the wings would be reinforced, giving clearance for 3 x 500 lbrs (two on wings, one on the centreline), making it more useful for short range attack missions.
Why were you not a designer in 1939?
'Doctor Who' Tardis on way...
Best Regards,
MB_Avro.
[/QUOTE]Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
[
Hey Berg,
What is that aircraft???
Best Regards,
MB_Avro.
Some info and photos here:
http://www.unrealaircraft.com/hybrid/spitfire.php
Nope. Sorry. It killed a lot of pilots due to its unforgiving stall.Originally posted by Altocirrus:
I think this takes care of most of them
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I would do the following:
1) relocate the radiators to single installation under the fuselage (just like a P-51). With reasonably careful design the chronic flow separation which plagues the Spitfire could be avoided, resulting in a considerable reduction in cooling drag.
(This was planned but never adopted due to the pressures of production.)
2) Make the slope of the windscreen more shallow. Modern CFD shows a separation bubble ahead of the screen brought about by its excessive steepness.
***
These two changes alone would be worth 30-50 mph.
For handling reasons, I'd also go for the Spiteful tail (both horizontal and vertical) much earlier in the run (say Mk IX). This might cost 10 mph.
I'd also go to a contra-prop earlier.
Other than that, the Spitfire was almost uncomfortably close to perfection...
In order of importance :-
1: Make more MkXIV's through 1944 rather than so many MkIX. 50:50 would have been a good mix.
2: Improve the heavy ailerons so that they were in synch with the incredbly light and effective elevator. - apparantly as speeds got high, the elevators stayed extremely light whereas the ailerons got very heavy, resulting in an odd mix of controls.
3: Increase top speed of the Merlin Spits.
4: More MkVIII airframes with their 650 mile range and increased endurance over MkIX's.
Why didnt htey build more Griffon SPits? Was there a specific reason? I htought it may be that :-
Maybe more SPitfires overall was seen as more important than less numbers of more advanced marks?
Problems producing the Griffon in numbers?
Priority given to producing the Merlin engine thanks to its versitility?
Or was there another reason?
As for the Hybrid Spitfire with Daimler Benz engine :-
Spitfire Vb serial EN830 / NX-X fell into German hands late in 1942. It crash landed on November 18th 1942 while being flown by P/O (Sous Lt.) Bernard Scheidhauer of the Free French Air Force, attached to 131 "County of Kent" Sqn. RAF. He and his No.1, P/O Henri de Bordas, had been on a "rhubarb" to Normandy during the afternoon. EN830 was hit by light flak and made a forced landing in a turnip field at Dielament Manor, Trinity, Jersey.
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Sous Lt Scheidhauer was taken prisoner by the Germans and, like his aircraft, was transported to Germany. On March 24th, 1944 he and 80 other RAF officers escaped from Stalag Luft 3. He was captured along with his escape partner Sq. Ldr. Roger Bushell in Saarbrucken. The were both shot for their part in the "Great Escape" on 28th March 1944. His aircraft was captured virtually intact, and in good enough condition to be flown in November 1943, with black crosses in place of RAF roundels, to Rechlin for testing.
In early spring of 1941, another Spitfire had been tested here. A suggestion that it be tested with a Daimler-Benz engine to enable a more direct comparison with the Luftwaffes' Messerschmitt Bf.109 led to it being flown to the Daimler-Benz facility at Backnang, near Stuttgart, on April 24, 1941. There it was to receive a DB 601 engine. This work proved to difficult and the project was abandoned. That aircraft returned to Rechlin on September 9, 1942.
The acquisition of the second Spitfire, EN830, revived the idea. The Spitfire was sent to Echterdingen, south of Stuttgart, where Daimler-Benz operated a flight testing division. Flugkapitän Willy Ellenreider and his staff were responsible for testing to improve performance of other current aircraft, and a number of types served as flying test-beds. Among them were Ju.52s with a DB 605 engine in the centre position; He.111s, Hs.130s, Bf.109s and 110s, a Ju.87 and an Fi.167.
Spitfire EN830 was repainted to German standards, dark green above and pale blue below, with bright yellow tail control surfaces and large, black crosses. Radio code letters CJ+ZY were painted on each side, below and, unusually, above the wings; and the British serial transferred to the fin above the swastika.
The Spitfire reached Echterdingen minus guns and ammunition, with the gun ports closed. The radio had been replaced with ballast, but it still had its original Merlin 45 engine. Several flights were made by Daimler-Benz pilots before conversion was attempted. A decision was made to replace the intruments and the entire electrical system with standard German equipment, because the Luftwaffe used a 24 volt system, whilst the RAF used a 12 volt standard.
After the Merlin engine was removed, it was discovered that the Spitfire's front fuselage cross-section was very close to that of the standard Bf.110G's engine cowling. A new engine support was designed, and a standard DB 605A-1 engine (Wk-Nr 00701990) was mounted to the fire wall. The work was completed at the Sindelfingen Daimler-Benz factory, near Echterdingen.
A 3.0 m. diameter Bf.109G propellor was added, together with the carburettor scoop from a Bf.109G. This made the modified Spitfire's all-up weight, without armament, 6,020 lb. (2730 kg). The armament weight was an estimated additional 661 lb. (300 kg.). Its weight with armament, before the engine modification, had been 6,680 lb. (3030 kg.).
After a couple of weeks, and with a new yellow-painted nose, the Spitfire returne to Echterdingen. Ellenreider was the first to try the aircraft. He was stunned that the aircraft had much better visibility and handling on the ground than the Bf.109. It took off before he realised it and had an impressive climb rate, around 70 ft. (21 m.) per second. Much of the Spitfire's better handling could be attributed to its lower wing loading.
The Spitfire's wing area was about 54 sq. ft. (5m²) greater than that of the Bf.109. The Messerschmitt was faster at low altitude, but at 11,000 ft. (3350 m) the speeds evened out. The DB 605A engine gave better performance, according to the test group, than the Merlin, which was rated 150 hp below the German engine. It gave the Spitfire a ceiling of 41,666 ft. (12700 m.), about 3,280 ft. (1000 m.) more than a Bf.109G with the same engine and 5,166 ft. (1475 m.) more than that of a Spitfire Mk.V.
After a brief period at Rechlin confirming the performance data, the modified Spitfire returned to Echterdingen to serve officially as a test bed. It was popular with the pilots in and out of working hours. Its career ended on 14th August, 1944, when a formation of US bombers attacked Echterdingen, wrecking two Ju.52s, three Bf.109Gs, a Bf.109H V1, an FW.190 V16, an Me.410 and the Spitfire. The remains of the hybrid Spitfire were scrapped at the Klemm factory at Böblingen.
From :-
http://www.unrealaircraft.com/hybrid/spitfire.php
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