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Member
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beeryus:
Every single simulation I've played has imposed limits on what you can do with people under your command. That's what separates simulations from other types of games. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's right. But I continue to pretend that the main reasons of that, is to limit the complexity and the time of development. In fact, to simulate "everything" is simply impossible. You will always forgot something !!!
Pratically, as I said already, this would increase something already complex by nature to something horribly complex, not speaking of all the additional code and ressources this would need. This is why every simulator design has the very difficult step, to decide what will be modelled and what won't. Moreover, it is almost impossible to found the perfect balance in a first version. It why it is probably important to express ourself, the users.
Peoples pretending it is perfectily correct and intentional to not allow something a U-boat captain would never do, are wrong. If it would be the case, why then it is possible to order "depth 250 meters" ? Why it is permitted to order "ahead flank" when inside the dock ? etc, etc...
What is sure, ironically, is that outside the game simulation world, professional simulations pay a special attention to particularely simulate all the events, which should in fact hopefully never happen. They are even some kind of simulation programs to precisely simulate: "... and what would happen if...". The "if" being something which will never be tryed in the real world !!!
To come back to our case, let me say to some peoples here, that I never said I want to be able to shoot at any target at any time in any conditions. To my taste, this would be equally unrealistic as it is now to simply forbid it on the basis of very simple rule (wind speed). The number one rule in simulation design is: "If you simulate something, simulate it as accurately as possible".
Actually, with a hull state of 100%, I know exactly that I can dive to 175 meters and stay here as long as I still have oxigen and/or battery power. One meter deeper... I am most probably dead !!! With the gun as long as I can go there, I am sure that I can aim myself and never miss a single shot. These two examples of simulation behaviors could have been, for sure, simulated much better, probably with not a great effort of suplementary coding. This would have added a lot to the game atmosphere.
Think about not being sure how deep you can really dive. Think about being at some depth and suddenly, after a random time, thing start to goes wrong. Think about the difficulty of deciding if you are going to use the deck gun, if weather conditions are "not so good, not so bad", if you know this may cost a man life. This is what I consider top simulation !!!
And it not because I say all that, that I dont love this game. So please, don't fire me. To my view, it is the most fantastic sub simulator ever done. The simulator I was dreaming for, since Silence Hunter I.
If I wouldn't love it, I wouldn't loose my time expressing me here. I would simply have trashed the game and started to do something else. It is because I love it, that I express my point of view on some matters which are sensitive to me, with the hope to bring my positive contribution to the future of this amazing piece of software.
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Senior Member
my proposition is simple - im not after being able to order crew to man the deck gun in any seas, adding work for the devs.
In fact, i think 7m/s is about right for the deck gun in the situation.
What i have a problem with is that wind speed is used to determine this, and its uniform for deck guns and flak guns, as well as between uboat models.
Have a look at the flak gun on the type XXI - enclosed, high up, within the conning tower - not dangerous in all but the roughest seas, and then no more so than watch crew.
Then look at the type II - low, unprotected, dangerous to man in any rough water
Now my question is; why must it always be 7m/s, and why even use wind speed for this at all?
If you can give me a satisfactory answer to these two questions, then i will acknowledge i was wrong. Otherwise reorder your thoughts.
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Member
I'm reaching here since I've never served on a WW2 nor a modern day submarine but I could imagine that a WW2 sub would infact make a more stable gun platform than a modern sub might. WW2 boats still had the fleetboat doctrine in them, basically 'ships' which travelled surfaced alongside fleets but had the ability to dive, whereas modern subs are optimized for underwater service thus their hull differs quite a bit from their predecessors in WW2 which might aswell make them more illsuited for surfaced operations.
In any case though a WW2 sub had a length of some 70m, a tonnage of 700-1,000 tons arguing it's less stable than a tug boat is absurd.
I too think the deck gun is too sensitive when it comes to being manned and not because of some obscure theories I've set up but because the game doesn't distinct between deck gun and flak, with the latter definitely being a far safer platform which might aswell be manned in weather conditions the deck gun might not. Furthermore the game doesn't consider wind directions, what speed the boat is doing, if it does any at all, but most important of all the wave patterns. The ability to use the deck gun should be dependent on the sea not primarily on windspeed. I've had apparent 'storms' with 7m/s windspeed but clear skies and the sea didn't even wash the deck, in reality the deck gun would have been operational. By the way all who think 7m/s is a huge storm that's 25kph or 15mph, that's a mild wind by my standards!
Having said that arguing 'the deck gun is too effective' 'the deck gun sinks too much' thus has to be limited in it's use doesn't make sense to me anyway. First of all this is a game, you'll sink more than they did in reality anyhow no matter how much you nerf the deck gun.
Rather it should tell the devs there is something wrong with the damage model in general and perhaps the AI too if a deck gun sinks a destroyer faster than the DD sinks the sub. There is another thread on this forum concerning ships sinking too fast through torps, this has nothing to do with the deck gun's effectivity but proves that ships sink too fast. As far as AI is concerned we'd have less sinkings in general if the AI would race away like it did in Aces of the Deep for instance, a freighter doing Zig-Zag at 5kn is a joke. Especially faster ships should try and make a run for it -outrunning the boat, maybe break the formation etc. this would be much more effective at lowering tonnage sunk without nerfing the gun or forcing the player into anything.
Lastly that video which was posted is cool. The sound of the deck gun is awesome me thinks and unlike someone said the shots in the video don't go passed because of the inaccuracy of the gun itself but because for one it is a single gun firing, at certain ranges you need additional shots to estimate the range and what's more in one of the pictures it clearly fires a shell into the sea in order to hit the waterline of the freighter, which it does.
Oh one more thing, haven't had too many freighters shoot at me since I'm only in 1940 but merchant crews were historically quite ineffective with the deck gun. Keep in mind these are normal sailors, rarely trained with artillery, thus they really shouldn't be all too accurate.
