1. #151
    Don't forget the fact that many came here to escape religious persecution, going all the way back a hundred or more years before. Many were afraid that under British rule, that such problems would crop up yet again. There were many factors which led us to revolt, not just a few.
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  2. #152
    WWMaxGunz's Avatar Senior Member
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    Jan 2002
    A lot did come to escape religious persecution indeed from at least two church-states.
    Church of England and Roman Catholic Church both.

    A lot of people were shipped to the south here as slaves both indentured and total slaves.

    And a bunch came over just to take advantage of the situation, some with hefty land grants
    and other official sweet deals.

    From the start there were 13 seperate 'states' each with their own laws. As a new country
    there just was not enough stability to from the start have everything even, the states did
    and still keep a lot of power to themselves. Thus what was right for some was not for the
    rest. The slavery issue was fought over for well more than 30 years before 1860.

    That all accounts for a lot of the disparity in views, ethics and philosophies that we still
    have the echoes of today.

    It's not all bad and not all good but slowly I think we can work much of it out. At least
    if the cheating and the outside influences let that happen. Wars do not help and avoidable
    wars are not good for the economy or anything else but the few who profit. We've had
    presidents since Lincoln and others point that out continually. Even the founders had some
    to say on that. The biggest danger throughout our history remains from within.

    Bear, I've quit feeding the trolls but I ain't about to put up with outright mudslinging.
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  3. #153
    So can we trace the beginnings of when Americans began to think of themselves as a nation rather than an English colony? As WWMaxGunz has pointed out, many came to get away from the English system rather than to perpepuate it. Many of the passengers on the Mayflower originated from an established religious commune in Holland, for instance, they were seeking a new life even further away from England's influence, not closer to it. Was the emergence of a land owning elite due to the original settlers, either by accident or design? Or was this due to the system imposed upon them by the English government? Would the continuation of a puritan republic in England have maintained closer ties with the colonies? Was the English class systen ever fully eradicated from the American psyche? Or was it replaced with a more subtle hierarchy based on wealth? Did the revolution go far enough? I must confess that hindsight is a wonderful gift, but was the civil war as inevitable as the revolution?
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  4. #154
    Aaron_GT's Avatar Senior Member
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    Dec 2003
    Would the continuation of a puritan republic in England have maintained closer ties with the colonies?
    The word 'puritan' gets bandied around a lot, but the religious landscape in mid seventeenth century England was rather complex. There was a brief flowering of religious tolerance, but in general the Commonwealth (Cromwell's regime) was not very religiously tolerant, leading to some groups leaving. To a certain extent this was in reaction to the Catholic leanings, in a relatively tolerant way, of Charles I, which was in stark contrast to the anti-Papal rhetoric of James I (which is where things start to tie in with Scottish religion of course). In fact John Lilburne (of the Levellers) actually proposed a return to the monarchy given the despotism and intolerance of the Commonwealth.

    So in summary a continuation of puritanism (if by this you mean the Commonwealth, and no Restoration) would probably have made things worse.

    Probably the Glorious Revolution of William of Orange and the Bill of Rights, while staunchly anti-Catholic, probably brought England closer to the colonies, but then this regime was replaced by the Hannoverian one.
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  5. #155
    Aaron_GT's Avatar Senior Member
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    Dec 2003
    I think all male citizens could vote in the US, that is all free (ie. white for the most part as slaves wre obviously excluded) male citizens, regardless if they were simple farmers or landowners or clockmakers...I am pretty sure it was only the landowning aristocracy that was enfranchised in the Uk for a long time.
    I thouhght the Constitution didn't really prescribe how voting within States was to occur, simply that a slate of Electors should be chosen which then votes for president.
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  6. #156
    MLudner's Avatar Banned
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    Jun 2005
    Here is the answer to your question, MB, expressed by Mr. Jefferson:

    "A Declaration by the Representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress assembled.
    "When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
    "We hold these truths to be self evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with [inherent and] inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, [begun at a distinguished period and] pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. Such has been the patient sufferance of these colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to [expunge] their former systems of government. The history of the present king of Great Britain is a history of [unremitting] injuries and usurpations, [among which appears no solitary fact to contradict the uniform tenor of the rest, but all have] in direct object the establishment of an absolute tyranny over these states. To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world [for the truth of which we pledge a faith yet unsullied by falsehood.]

    "He has refused his assent to laws the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

    "He has forbidden his governors to pass laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his assent should be obtained; and, when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

    "He has refused to pass other laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of representation in the legislature, a right inestimable to them, and formidable to tyrants only.

    "He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

    "He has dissolved representative houses repeatedly [and continually] for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

    "He has refused for a long time after such dissolutions to cause others to be elected, whereby the legislative powers, incapable of annihilation, have returned to the people at large for their exercise, the state remaining, in the meantime, exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without and convulsions within.

    "He has endeavored to prevent the population of these states; for that purpose obstructing the laws for naturalization of foreigners, refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new appropriations of lands.

    "He has [suffered] [Changed by Congress: obstructed] the administration of justice [totally to cease in some of these states] [Changed by Congress: by] refusing his assent to laws for establishing judiciary powers.

    "He has made [our] judges dependent on his will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

    "He has erected a multitude of new offices, [by a self-assumed power] and sent hither swarms of new officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

    "He has kept among us in times of peace standing armies [and ships of war] without the consent of our legislatures.

    "He has affected to render the military independent of, and superior to, the civil power.

    "He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitutions and unacknowledged by our laws giving his assent to their acts of pretended legislation for quartering large bodies of armed troops among us; for protecting them by a mock trial from punishment for any murders which they should commit on the inhabitants of these states; for cutting off our trade with all parts of the world, for imposing taxes on us without our consent; for depriving us [added by Congress: in many cases] of the benefits of trial by jury; for transporting us beyond seas to be tried for pretended offences; for abolishing the free system of English laws in a neighboring province, establishing therein an arbitrary government, and enlarging its boundaries, so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these [states] [Changed by Congress: colonies]; for taking away our charters, abolishing our most valuable laws, and altering fundamentally the forms of our governments; for suspending our own legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

    "He has abdicated government here [withdrawing his governors, and declaring us out of his allegiance and protection.] by declaring us out of his protection, and waging war against us.

    "He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

    "He is at this time transporting large armies of foreign mercenaries to complete the works of death, desolation and tyranny already begun with circumstances of cruelty and perfidy [Added by Congress: scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally] unworthy the head of a civilized nation.

    "He has constrained our fellow citizens taken captive on the high seas, to bear arms against their country, to become the executioners of their friends and brethren, or to fall themselves by their hands.

    "He has [Added by Congress: excited domestic insurrection among us, and has] endeavored to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian savages, whose known rule of warfare is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions [of existence].

    "[He has incited treasonable insurrections of our fellow citizens, with the allurements of forfeiture and confiscation of our property.

    "He has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivatng and carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere, or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. This piratical warfare, the opprobrium of INFIDEL powers, is the warfare of the CHRISTIAN king of Great Britain. Determined to keep open a market where MEN should be bought and sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or to restrain this execrable commerce. And that this assemblage of horrors might want no fact of distinguished die, he is now exciting those very people to rise in arms among us, and to purchase that liberty of which he has deprived them, by murdering the people for whom he also obtruded them: thus paying off former crimes committed against the LIBERTIES of one people, with crimes which he urges them to commit against the LIVES of another.]

    "In every stage of these oppressions we have petitioned for redress in the most humble terms: our repeated petitions have been answered only by repeated injuries.

    "A prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a tyrant is unfit to be the ruler of a [Added by Congress: free] people [who mean to be free. Future ages will scarcely believe that the hardiness of one man adventured, within the short compass of twelve years only, to lay a foundation so broad and so undisguised for tyranny over a people fostered and fixed in principles of freedom].

    "Nor have we been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend [a] [Added by Congress: an unwarrantable] jurisdiction over [these our states]. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here, [no one of which could warrant so strange a pretension: that these were effected at the expense of our own blood and treasure, unassisted by the wealth or the strength of Great Britain: that in constituting indeed our several forms of government, we had adopted one common king, thereby laying a foundation for perpetual league and amity with them: but that submission to their parliament was no part of our constitution, nor ever in idea, if history have may be credited: and,] we [Added by Congress: have] appealed to and their native justice and magnanimity [as well as to] [Changed: and we have conjured them by] the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations which [were likely to] [Changed: would inevitably] interrupt our connection and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity, [and when occasions have been given them, by the regular course of their laws, of removing from their councils the disturbers of our harmony, they have, by their free election, reestablished them in power. At this very time too, they are permitting their chief magistrate to send over not only soldiers of our common blood, but Scotch and foreign mercenaries to invade and destroy us. These facts have given the last stab to agonizing affection, and manly spirit bids us to renounce forever these unfeeling brethren. We must endeavor to forget our former love for them, and hold them as we hold the rest of mankind, enemies in war, in peace friends. We might have been a free and a great people together; but a communication of grandeur and of freedom, it seems, is below their dignity. Be it so, since they will have it. The road to happiness and to glory is open to us, too. We will tread it apart from them, and] [Changed: We must therefore] acquiesce in the necessity which denounces our [eternal] separation [Added: and hold them as we hold the rest of mankind, enemies in war, in peace friends]!

    "We therefore the representatives of the United States of America in General Congress assembled, do in the name, and by the authority of the good people of these [states reject and renounce all allegiance and subjection to the kings of Great Britain and all others who may hereafter claim by, through or under them; we utterly dissolve all political connection which may heretofore have subsisted between us and the people or parliament of Great Britain: and finally we do assert and declare these colonies to be free and independent states,] and that as free and independent states, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do.
    "And for the support of this declaration, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor."

    This version was not ratified, but it lists the grievances as the Patriots saw them.
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  7. #157
    Bearcat99's Avatar Senior Member
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    Oct 2002
    I was wondering when you would get here professor....
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  8. #158
    America will be composed of several european states,a french section,a british section,a dutch section...you name it!
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  9. #159
    But would they live in peace and harmony?
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  10. #160
    No way!!! europeans invented "modern warfare"

    And if america did not unite as a whole and european states were created,peoply will become loyal to their state and won't bother to make any rebellion.
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