1. #61
    "England is the pit whence we Americans were delved. Within her boundaries our language grew and was enriched until it became, for range and vigor if not for beauty and precision of sound, the most perfect instrument of verbal expression ever known. England gave us the English bible, which has been the main source of our profound idealism through all our years. She gave us our common law, and such respect for legal customs and restraints as we have shown. From England we brought our basic notions of representative government, of liberty under the law, of town and village communities, and of home life. Our revolt against the homeland, carried out as it was by Englishmen in the spirit of English ideals, was one of the most characteristic things that English people have ever achieved."

    Odell Shepard, Trinity College.
    Share this post

  2. #62
    Hi there, Jungmann

    Quote:
    "Everybody who came to America wanted to be there."

    What about the African slaves?


    panther3485

    A valid point, I suppose, but tiresome.

    African slavery was invented by Africans, was spread to the Middle East by Moslem Arabs, and became trans-Atlantic when the British began farming their plantations in the Carribean islands. Slaves came to the New World on British ships, bound head to foot; a fifty-percent loss of cargo en route was an acceptable margin. Slavery is a sin, but it's a sin of our species, not America alone, and all who participated in it share its shame.

    Cheers,
    Share this post

  3. #63
    Von_Rat's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    1,900
    Originally posted by HellToupee:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
    this doesn't show the british military in a very good light does it. they couldnt defeat a revolution that had only about ten percent of the people supporting it, even when they had a similar number supporting them? i guess those brit generals should of been shot for incompetance.
    but they were rarely defeated in battle, the biggest issue was they had not enough man power to put down the rebellion, there was no central power like european countries eg take the capital the country surrenders when they conquerored the closest thing to a capital they just moved somewhere else.

    They couldnt help but lose, on the otherside of the world with reinforcements and such half the world away, the american armies when defeated would just withdraw inland and form another, british armies were mostly stuck holding costal cities .

    There was help from France and Spain to i belive against the british. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


    if they didnt have enough manpower to defeat rebellion, that means the rebellion was widespread enough and determined enough to win. if it was that widespread and determined it was inevietable. thats my point.

    as to the ,brits couldnt help but lose because of distance theory, i point to india, a vast heavily populated country on the other side of the world. the brits did just fine there. despite the greater distance, french interferance and no central capitol there either.
    Share this post

  4. #64
    ploughman's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    6,487
    Don't forget the French. The defeat they handed to us at the Battle of Chesapeake was pretty handy for you fellows.
    Share this post

  5. #65
    horseback's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Posts
    5,052
    As regards help for the former colonies from France and Spain, what'd you expect? Anytime a Superpower gets a teet caught in the wringer, everyone with a grudge is going to pile on.

    About Bearcat's contention that it all comes down to money and power, I'm not completely sure that I accept that, unless you include the perception of personal freedom in your definition of power. The basic conflict was the British government's sudden interest in controlling (and in some cases, 'milking') people who had been essentially independent of government 'protection' quite successfully for over 100 years.

    cheers

    horseback
    Share this post

  6. #66
    ploughman's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    6,487
    Anytime a Superpower gets a teet caught in the wringer,

    Ouch.
    Share this post

  7. #67
    Bearcat99's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    15,969
    Originally posted by Jungmann:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Hi there, Jungmann
    Quote:
    "Everybody who came to America wanted to be there."
    What about the African slaves?
    panther3485
    A valid point, I suppose, but tiresome.

    African slavery was invented by Africans, was spread to the Middle East by Moslem Arabs, and became trans-Atlantic when the British began farming their plantations in the Carribean islands. Slaves came to the New World on British ships, bound head to foot; a fifty-percent loss of cargo en route was an acceptable margin. Slavery is a sin, but it's a sin of our species, not America alone, and all who participated in it share its shame.
    Cheers, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Be all that as it may be I think the context of his statement was.... that not everyone who came to America wanted to be here.
    Also for the record.. African slavery bore no resemblence to what became the European African slave trade at all or the horrors that came with it.
    Share this post

  8. #68
    Xiolablu3's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    8,755
    Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
    WHat you guys have to realise is that in Britain, the revolutionists in the US would have been seen exactly as you guys see freedom fighters in Iraq right now, or fighters in Afganistan - as terrorists wanting to fight the law.

    No doubt the terrorists/freedom fighters in Iraq think they are fighting for God/freedom/against the American Oppressor just like the fighters in 1800's. fighting the 'evil colonials.'

    Britain saw the American fighters as terrorists, nothing more. Its just a point of view.

    Remember that its the victors which write the history.

    Also the declaration of independance, it only applied to white Americans remember
    No. I don't think so

    the US didn't go start a colony in Iraq, sponsor it, then begin a policy of what to the Iraqi people were unconsionable actions, against which they revolted, and then the US did not go in to quell a rebellion

    The US went there to fight for it's interests. One of the reasons, which people conveniently forget, is that Iraq violated numerous terms of the treaty set up from the First Gulf War. To not act on that would be a policy of Appeasement. I think Chamberlain set the example on that subject

    We did not set up a government, we removed one. Iraq has not had it's "freedom" removed by the "US". For one thing the "US" wasn't the only nation there, and for another Iraq really didn't have nuch "freedom" allowed it by it's government, for example, religion was oppresed.

    Invading Iraaq and then giving them free elections does not equal setting up a colony, and freedom fighters are fighting the wrong folks if they are fighting the US in Iraq. We don't want to govern Iraq. Most of us want nothing to do with Iraq.

    Your example is a terrible one I'm afraid and it's a little bit like propaganda if you ask me

    As far as slavery goes...slavery did not begin or end with either the introduction of the first African to the colonial soil, or with the Emancipation Proclamation, and neither was it solely the white man who traded in African slaves. Also, not every African was a slave, not even in this area.


    Slavery was a time-honored tradition before 1778, and in the Roman Empire it was an institution. Private citizens sold themselves into slavery to escape debt. They were slaves for a number of years. Also in the Roman Empire, there was no real racist attitude.

    Mentioning that in this discussion is nothing but a cheap sensasionalist angle to stir up emotions. It's a fact that slavery existed in the Colonies and in the US. What's the point? that the Declaration of Independence was hypocritical because Tom Jefferson was a slave owner? You do know a bit about Jefferson, right? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    1. The Romans didnt pretend all men were equal

    2. I am sure people of Iraq love what America is doing.

    3. I am sure the British thought that what they were doing was in the 'best interests of the Pioneers too, just like Iraq/Afganistan

    4. I think the settlers in the early USA also removed a government it didnt approve of.

    5. America/UK have secured a large oil supply and a base in the Middle East by setting up its own government.

    6. The fighters in Iraq believe wholeheartedly they are fighting an invading power, just like the early settlers in USA vs Britian. USA is hated in the Middle East by the majority and they dont want them there.

    7. Iraq is a colony of the USA in all but name. Look at how many US businesses are taking over the country.

    8. I wish I had never posted in this damn thread now, as I dont really care, its hundreds of years ago.
    Share this post

  9. #69
    So does this thread have get to 7 pages before it gets locked or do I have to start posting 8 page essay's about how bad I am ?

    Cos I am Bad man waaaaaay Bad.

    I am badder than a bad things bad bad bits!

    And joo know it!

    Because I am so bad

    Thats bad in bad way not like in a bad bad way !

    That would be just to dang bad and I am just like too super bad to be that freaking bad man!

    Yup bad thats what I said, bad.

    You can tell I am bad because thats what it says on my wallet.

    Check it out there it is Bad.

    B.A.D

    Sheet if I was a Dog all the other dogs would cross the street cos they would know that I was a bad dog.

    Yup just do ma business in the street right there because I am a bad *** mofoing bad dog man!

    Why the hell else would you think that I got this guy here with the little shovel and the plastic bag to scoop up my little doggy badness's?

    Yp joo gezzed it co's I is the Badness and joo best be thank full that I aint an Elephant because if I was I would be the badest!

    Did I tell you I was bad? Probably not because the minit you saw me you probably said to your self there goes one freaking big eleophant!

    Yeah you know what I am talking about dont yah ?
    Share this post

  10. #70
    I really did touch a nerve when I dissed Dana in the Eurovision thread, didn't I?
    Share this post