1. #121
    AKA_TAGERT's Avatar Banned
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    Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
    What you forgot Taliban and Afganistan? We never finished in Afganistan.
    What are you talking about? What does who we attacked after 911 have to do with the attitude here at home with regards to waking up and calling the enemy the enemy? ie My 1st point. In 1941 it only took one attack for "most" at home to wake up and call the enemy the enemy and go after them full force.. Now "most" are hand wringing over what to call them let alone going after them with any force let alone full force! As for finishing..

    BINGO SON!

    That is what I am talking about.. due to all the PC hand wringing going on and wanting everyone to like us we wont do what it takes (full force) to allow ourselves to win! Here is the main reason why

    White Guilt and the Western Past

    Read it then get back to me about not finishing. The guilt of the past keeps us from doing what needs to be done in the present! Full Force! History shows, Peace follows total victory! Without total victory, there is no peace.

    Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
    Now we have Iraq and better trained terrorists than
    ever in history thanks to "We know where the WMD's are." which was a lie.
    Not true on both counts.. But if being anti-american is what you need to give your self a sence of "moral legitimacy".. Well don€t be too hard on yourself, you are in good company! In 1941 you would have been the exception to the rule, but today.. Today your part of the hand wringing majority. So read the link I gave you.. than maybe you will realize just how wrong you are.. maybe.

    Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
    In case you never watched the whole show, 9-11 attacks were not carried out by any army of any government. Only trail led to Afganistan and Taliban and Al Quaeda.
    In case you never read my post I never said they were a army or a government, I simply said we are too PC to call them the enemy. If you can not even call the enemy the enemy what chance do you stand of beating them?

    Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
    Sleeping Giant or Drunk Texan with shotgun? Oh, I'm not being PC! Just realistic.
    Not realistic, but a real hip mainstream hand wringer for sure.

    Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
    Mexico? They come and go freely, 1 of 8 is inside the US. GOP wants to keep em here
    to work for less, errrr, do jobs Americans won't do (for 1/2 min wage, what they don't say). AFAIK at least one of the 9-11 bunch came in through Canada. Wanna invade there too?
    My 2nd point you missed.. I pray that when, not if, but when the next attack comes they conclude they came through our southern border.. Not to give us a reason to attack Mexico.. but to wake us up to the fact that our boarders are being over run to the point there is no boarder. Because it will take an attack of equal or larger scale to force both parties to drop their reasons for leaving it open and do the right thing. Thus killing two birds with one stone

    Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
    Budget for Immigration has been cut so bad that when illegal immigrants get caught in
    crimes the police don't bother notifying Immigration as they can't afford to respond.
    That must be something Clinton set up that Bush can't change in over 5 years, right?
    Man I think you are hopless and that link will not do you any good.. your too far gone.. Because this is not a bush vs. clinton or dem vs rep thing let alone a you vs me thing! It is about the "mindset" of the most of the leaders and the most of the people in the USA (read lib baby boomers) who care more about what others think of them than doing the right thing. Bush can only do so much.. if the majority of the people are too worried about what other people or countries think of them, than Bush is limited in what he can do. Simply put, Bush is not a dictator who can do what ever he wants to do. If the people are too weak to do what needs to be done, than so is the power of the pres to do what needs to be done. Sure he can deply troops for a certain amount of time, but without the support of the people his time is limited. Long story short, if the caliber of people today is what we had running around in the USA in 1941 we would all be speaking German right now. But who knows, give it a shot, read that link and get back to me.. But hurry before some hang wringing mod deletes it because it has the word white in it.
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  2. #122
    WWMaxGunz's Avatar Senior Member
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    What's this white guilt shi+? Sorry hoss, my people came here from Canada.

    And you don't believe that the terrorists in Iraq are better trained than ever?
    Please, talk to some VETS who have returned from there. We passed the 'next level' already
    over a year ago. There's Irani officers been captured as well. Or is that not PC?

    You don't believe that the admin had Colin Powell stand up and tell us they knew where the
    WMD's were? Funny, I was waiting to give blood at the VA when I watched his powerpoint
    schpiel. I was totally assured that they knew exactly where the weapons were. I even
    backed the need to invade for which I feel stupid, fooled again!

    Perhaps you don't remember the revelations of the Pentagon Papers. Perhaps you never READ
    them. I did in 1974 when the government docs were released. Hand wring my azz, that was
    a dirty play and I don't give a cr@p what other people think, I LOST RELATIVES AND NEIGHBORS
    TO THAT MESS. I've seen the price the US paid and who here got the big bucks in return.

    You want to get your opinion from the GOP and Fox then go ahead. I watch what happens and
    pay attention to the whole show, not just take a party line.

    We're STUCK in Iraq and it was a stupid mistake. Maybe you should donate a kid or something
    if you feel so bloody great about it, probably wouldn't phaze you anyway. Be proud.

    In the meantime I can hope for a miracle that things die down and we can leave since we
    can't until then. Maybe if people can give up their gas hogs there won't be so much money
    going to pay for terrorists (since the money comes from oil exporters) but that's not bloody
    likely either. It's like asking addicts to give up on drugs or cigarettes or whatever, they
    say 'what problem' and paddle up denial. Yes, it's the PC hand wringers that are causing
    the problems, that's the ticket. Attacking Iraq because of WMD's and gassing people (back
    when Bush was funding Saddam billions a year) and Al Quaeda was there (up in the uncontrolled
    part of the country but let's make it out like Saddam had em in there) only there were no
    WMD's and only broken programs (oops, our intel was, uhhh, fooled, except that before the
    war they had people saying it was far from certain but Fox and the Admin said they were
    wrong) so maybe things just were never so clear cut as we were told directly they were.

    There's PC and then there's GOP party line that CAN'T admit a mistake let alone a lie.
    I ain't either but you are definitely in the second category Tagert.
    Did you ever serve in the military?
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  3. #123
    Originally posted by stelr:

    Sorry, but terrorists cannot be given the same honor and respect we give freedom fighters or even insurgents.
    Save the drama for your momma

    Originally posted by stelr:

    OTOH, in Iraq, the enemy targets innocent civilians with the specific goal to kill as many innocents as possible and hope the media splashes the horrific act all over the papers and internet. Thus, earning the title of terrorist.
    With the possible exception of it happening in Iraq and spreading on the internet, the title of terrorist has been earned by General Paul W Tibbets, the late Charles W. Sweeney, and several hundred pilots over Dresden.

    That either means terror is a normal part of war or that rules bend to the situation. Either way it should be a crime.

    [quote]Originally posted by stelr:
    Hmmm....

    Wonder where you are getting all your "facts?"

    Have you been to the country/region? Have you talked to people there? Have you eaten with them in their homes and heard what they had to say about their situation? Have you witnessed, first hand, their reactions to the so call "freedom fighter" you refer to after an attack on the civilian poplulation...market places, mosques, etc.?

    Originally posted by stelr:
    If you haven't, I recommend you do before just repeating the censored, vetted, excuse for "news" we are fed daily in the media. My experience is they get it wrong more than right. If you can't travel there, I recommend at least getting info from multiple sources before forming an opinion. I read liberal & conservative papers, including (shocking ) non-US sources, have been to both counties as well as a few others in the region several times, and still don't believe I have a good grasp on what's really happening in a certain country or region to say what these folks or those folks really think about the situation.
    There isn't just "liberal" and "conservative" resources in the USA. The black-and-white society that that statement implies is too good to be true, especially since most people in this country are niether conservative nor liberal. So it sounds like you read magazine columns, maybe listen to news radio, and maybe warm up to that friend that never says no, the TV.

    I'm different. I never watch TV, I don't need the radio (unless it's a two way for emergencies), I am not seduced by passionate magazine articles either. But when I do turn on the TV to see what's on every 12 days or so here's what I find:

    Fox News - Liberal media is biased and is killing us all. The president is indisputable and has done a great job. Praise the despot!

    MSNBC - President's ratings are at an all-time low. Possible scandals...cover ups...

    AND IT NEVER CHANGES..... Bush gives a raw deal and the liberal media is still there to cover it.....and the other's shift in between and the rest of the world just seems to have it's head out of it's ***.

    There is no need to state your opinion, I already know people that watch the news, thank you.



    Originally posted by stelr:

    I don't agree with our own definitions for terrorists...and we have many. The UN has one definition, different from our State Dept, which has a definition different from our own Dept of Defense, etc. etc. The problem nowadays is that the term terrorist has been watered down to apply to just about anybody we shoot at.

    IMHO, the difference between a terrorist and any other adversary is the target. A terrorist attacks innocent civilians to create an atmosphere of "terror" and causing the civilian populace to lose faith in the govt's ability to protect them (i.e. provide for the common defense).....

    OTOH, in Iraq, the enemy targets innocent civilians with the specific goal to kill as many innocents as possible and hope the media splashes the horrific act all over the papers and internet. Thus, earning the title of terrorist.
    It's either all or nothing... are civilians going to be treated like combatants? Are civilians being killed on the front lines? Two words: Willy- Pete
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  4. #124
    This thread seems to have strayed a lot from the original topic!

    I appeal to you guys; 1700's please, gentlemen. Leave the current affairs for another forum!

    By the way, I believe that the American War of Independence was pretty much inevitable. I also believe that the American colonists were bound to win sooner or later. Just my 20c worth!



    Best regards to all,
    panther3485
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  5. #125
    AKA_TAGERT's Avatar Banned
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    Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
    What's this white guilt shi+? Sorry hoss, my people came here from Canada.
    LOL! And "most" of the people from Canada came from where? Nice try son.

    Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
    And you don't believe that the terrorists in Iraq are better trained than ever?
    Please, talk to some VETS who have returned from there. We passed the 'next level' already over a year ago. There's Irani officers been captured as well. Or is that not PC?
    Son, your talking to a 12+ year military veteran who has several buddies that are still in the military and several who recently retired from the military, one of which has 18 years in the special forces and another that spent a year in Afganistan. As for better trained.. I don€t know what you think that means, thus far all it has ment to our troops is the terrorist are better at dying for a cause, so in that since yes they are better. As for IRAN officers being captured in IRAQ? Welcome to 2002! In that was about the time that Rumsfeld made note of that, and on that note, I and my veteran buddies think it is great that the terrorist are coming to IRAQ to die instead of NYC. PERFECT! Could not ask for more! Glad to hear that better terrorist training taught them that! Oh and by buddies.. I don€t mean some nub your type to once or twice on the interment, I mean guys you worked with 24/7 in the field, shared your food with and slept in the same fox hole with.

    Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
    You don't believe that the admin had Colin Powell stand up and tell us they knew where the WMD's were? Funny, I was waiting to give blood at the VA when I watched his powerpoint schpiel. I was totally assured that they knew exactly where the weapons were. I even backed the need to invade for which I feel stupid, fooled again!
    Well you got the fool part right

    Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
    Perhaps you don't remember the revelations of the Pentagon Papers. Perhaps you never READ them. I did in 1974 when the government docs were released. Hand wring my azz, that was a dirty play and I don't give a cr@p what other people think, I LOST RELATIVES AND NEIGHBORS TO THAT MESS. I've seen the price the US paid and who here got the big bucks in return.
    Boo Hoo MAX just realized that life is not fair and that government is not perfect!

    Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
    You want to get your opinion from the GOP and Fox then go ahead. I watch what happens and pay attention to the whole show, not just take a party line.
    Canada is calling!

    Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
    We're STUCK in Iraq and it was a stupid mistake. Maybe you should donate a kid or something if you feel so bloody great about it, probably wouldn't phaze you anyway. Be proud.

    In the meantime I can hope for a miracle that things die down and we can leave since we
    can't until then. Maybe if people can give up their gas hogs there won't be so much money going to pay for terrorists (since the money comes from oil exporters) but that's not bloody likely either. It's like asking addicts to give up on drugs or cigarettes or whatever, they say 'what problem' and paddle up denial. Yes, it's the PC hand wringers that are causing the problems, that's the ticket. Attacking Iraq because of WMD's and gassing people (back when Bush was funding Saddam billions a year) and Al Quaeda was there (up in the uncontrolled part of the country but let's make it out like Saddam had em in there) only there were no WMD's and only broken programs (oops, our intel was, uhhh, fooled, except that before the war they had people saying it was far from certain but Fox and the Admin said they were wrong) so maybe things just were never so clear cut as we were told directly they were.

    There's PC and then there's GOP party line that CAN'T admit a mistake let alone a lie.
    I ain't either but you are definitely in the second category Tagert. Did you ever serve in the military?
    YAWN.. Your since of "moral legitimacy" is showing.. like I said, that link would not help, your too far gone.
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  6. #126
    WOLFMondo's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally posted by stelr:

    As to the IRA vs. Al Queda, I have little knowledge of the fighting in N. Ireland. However, if it is no different, as you claim, then the majority of the IRA core must be made up of people from different countries, not Ireland, and brought in to kill Irish people. If it is the same, then the IRA must be bombing the h*ll out of Irish citizens to get them to lose faith in the British govt's ability to protect them. Is this what's happening in N. Ireland?
    The difference with the IRA is funding. The IRA recived funding and weapons directly from less reputable nations although despite in the UK, the IRA and its political wing was banned and its leaders were not allowed to broadcast on TV or campaign for funds, they were in the United States, which has a large Catholic base. Gerry Adams and Martin Mc******ss (self confessed terrorist) were allowed to gather funds to buy weapons in the US despite protests from the UK.


    The IRA targetted protestant catholics and unionists and the British.

    While the people doing the fighting were Catholic Irishmen, the funding came from all over the world. Same as Al Queda and the Iraq insurgents, just from diffference countries.

    In Iraq its the same end these guys want, i.e. the US and UK out but because its seen by some a s a crusade, like minded Arabs and Muslims are drawn to assist Iraqi's wanting the US and UK out.

    Its a bit like the French assisting the United States during the war of independance.
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  7. #127
    HellToupee's Avatar Senior Member
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    I meant that America/Britain are installing the governments THEY approve of. If a communist Government looked like winning, do you think they would take them seriously? I dont.
    well Hamas in palastine perfect example of that.
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  8. #128
    well, this thread has definitely turned into a pile a poo
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  9. #129
    Bearcat99's Avatar Senior Member
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    If this thread doesnt get back on topic and stay there Ill lock it. Enough already.

    Originally posted by panther3485:
    This thread seems to have strayed a lot from the original topic!
    I appeal to you guys; 1700's please, gentlemen. Leave the current affairs for another forum!
    By the way, I believe that the American War of Independence was pretty much inevitable. I also believe that the American colonists were bound to win sooner or later. Just my 20c worth!

    Best regards to all,
    panther3485
    I think pretty much all the European nations were on shaky ground over here... they were so busy fighting amongst themselves and they brought that over here.. but there was enough of a 3rd party with its own intrests that werent tied up in Europe to make the split inevitable.. even if some other country like France or Spain.. who were the biggest contenders outside of England..... they couldnt hold onto thier colonies over here in NA either...
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  10. #130
    For those more interested in following the course of written constitutions (the British are still waiting for one of their own, btw) the following links may be of interest. As I've already posted 'An agreement of the people' from 1647, I've left it out. Perhaps I should also include the Gettysburg address and the 13th ammendment, or the European Convention on human rights, but there's enough here for the genuinely interested to be getting on with. I make no apology for including so much Thomas Paine - I feel his contibution to both the American and French revolutions is often sadly neglected. Of particular note is the section in the last link containing constitutions from various modern nations. If you follow these links, you'll appreciate the derivative nature of such matters and hopefully concur that it's a very rare political animal indeed that acts purely for the people they so often claim to represent. These links are by no means exhaustive and are posted in the hope that at least some of you will delve further into such matters, emerging with a greater understanding and respect for what people of all nations have done in an attempt to better the lot of their fellow man.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy

    http://www.bl.uk/treasures/magnacarta/magna.html

    http://www.ushistory.org/paine/commonsense/index.htm

    http://www.ushistory.org/paine/crisis/index.htm

    http://www.ushistory.org/paine/rights/index.htm

    http://www.ushistory.org/paine/reason/index.htm

    http://www.history-magazine.com/codenap.html

    http://www.leftjustified.org/leftjus...t/wtp/wtp.html
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