1. #111
    HayateAce's Avatar Banned
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    Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
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  2. #112
    The sword distribution system has served us well for a thousand years btw, nice car in your sig...
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  3. #113
    The Agreement of the People, as presented to the Council of the Army.

    October,1647.

    An Agreement of the People for a firm and present peace upon grounds of common right.

    Having by our late labours and hazards made it appear to the world at how high a rate we value our just freedom, and God having so far owned our cause as to deliver the enemies thereof into our hands, we do now hold ourselves bound in mutual duty to each other to take the best care we can for the future to avoid both the danger of returning into a slavish condition and the chargeable remedy of another war; for, as it cannot be imagined that so many of our countrymen would have opposed us in this quarrel if they had understood their own good, so may we safely promise to ourselves that, when our common rights and liberties shall be cleared, their endeavours will be disappointed that seek to make themselves our masters. Since, therefore, our former oppressions and scarce-yet-ended troubles have been occasioned, either by want of frequent national meetings in Council, or by rendering those meetings ineffectual, we are fully agreed and resolved to provide that hereafter our representatives be neither left to an uncertainty for the time nor made useless to the ends for which they are intended. In order whereunto we declare: €"

    That the people of England, being at this day very unequally distributed by Counties, Cities, and Boroughs for the election of their deputies in Parliament, ought to be more indifferently proportioned according to the number of the inhabitants; the circumstances whereof for number, place, and manner are to be set down before the end of this present Parliament.

    II.

    That, to prevent the many inconveniences apparently arising from the long continuance of the same persons in authority, this present Parliament be dissolved upon the last day of September which shall be in the year of our Lord 1648

    III.

    That the people do, of course, choose themselves a Parliament once in two years, viz. upon the first Thursday in every 2d March[1], after the manner as shall be prescribed before the end of this Parliament, to begin to sit upon the first Thursday in April following, at Westminster or such other place as shall be appointed from time to time by the preceding Representatives, and to continue till the last day of September then next ensuing, and no longer.

    IV.

    That the power of this, and all future Representatives of this Nation, is inferior only to theirs who choose them, and doth extend, without the consent or concurrence of any other person or persons, to the enacting, altering, and repealing of laws, to the erecting and abolishing of offices and courts, to the appointing, removing, and calling to account magistrates and officers of all degrees, to the making war and peace, to the treating with foreign States, and, generally, to whatsoever is not expressly or impliedly reserved by the represented to themselves: Which are as followeth.

    1. That matters of religion and the ways of God's worship are not at all entrusted by us to any human power, because therein we cannot remit or exceed a tittle of what our consciences dictate to be the mind of God without wilful sin: nevertheless the public way of instructing the nation (so it be not compulsive) is referred to their discretion.

    2. That the matter of impresting and constraining any of us to serve in the wars is against our freedom; and therefore we do not allow it in our Representatives; the rather, because money (the sinews of war), being always at their disposal, they can never want numbers of men apt enough to engage in any just cause.

    3. That after the dissolution of this present Parliament, no person be at any time questioned for anything said or done in reference to the late public differences, otherwise than in execution of the judgments of the present Representatives or House of Commons.

    4. That in all laws made or to be made every person may be bound alike, and that no tenure, estate, charter, degree, birth, or place do confer any exemption from the ordinary course of legal proceedings whereunto others are subjected.

    5. That as the laws ought to be equal, so they must be good, and not evidently destructive to the safety and well-being of the people.

    These things we declare to be our native rights, and therefore are agreed and resolved to maintain them with our utmost possibilities against all opposition whatsoever; being compelled thereunto not only by the examples of our ancestors, whose blood was often spent in vain for the recovery of their freedoms, Buffering themselves through fraudulent accommodations to be still deluded of the fruit of their victories, but also by our own woeful experience, who, having long expected and dearly earned the establishment of these certain rules of government, are yet made to depend for the settlement of our peace and freedom upon him that intended our bondage and brought a cruel war upon us.

    [1] I. e. in March in every other year.
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  4. #114
    Xiolablu3's Avatar Senior Member
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    ALthough it says quoted by Stehler, the above quote is actually by me.

    7. Iraq is a colony in all but name.

    I meant that America/Britain are installing the governments THEY approve of. If a communist Government looked like winning, do you think they would take them seriously? I dont.



    But to be honest, this discussion will never end, so I dont really care if some people dont agree. I havent even read the last few pages, only this last one.

    I dont want to fall out with people who disagree with me, but if you cant see that to some people, the fighters in Iraq are freedom fighters NOT terrorists, then you are just kidding yourselves. I am not saying its right, just how it is.
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  5. #115
    Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stelr:

    7. Iraq is a colony of the USA in all but name. Look at how many US businesses are taking over the country.
    Hmmm....

    Wonder where you are getting all your "facts?"
    </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Fox news. :P

    1 word. Haliburton. Just look at how many contracts those guys have with both the occupying powers and the rebuilding of Iraq. Haliburton IS Iraq right now.

    Originally posted by stelr:
    Sorry, but terrorists cannot be given the same honor and respect we give freedom fighters or even insurgents.
    Thats subjective, as is the use of those terms.
    Take the IRA, probably one of the worlds most famous insurgent organisations. To the Irish they are freedom fighters, to the British they are terrorists. Simple summary of the situation yes, but it sums it up nicely.

    And no, its really no different from Iraq except the British has occupied Northern Ireland for so long there accepted there by a vast amount of people.

    Its the same thing with the Nepalese Maoists, the Basque sepratists etc. Both have used violence, rightly or wrongly, to put there message across. To there governments they are terrorists and should be locked up, to the people they represent they are hero's and freedom fighters and there army.[/QUOTE]

    Although Haliburton has had a majority of the contracts with the military in the past (I'm not qualified to talk about civilian contracts since I have no experience here), specifically providing services to our military folks in harms way, I can tell you it is because not many companies do the type of things they do or provide the military skill sets required. Not only were they the cheapest bidder...in some cases they were the only bidder.

    They received their largest "sole source" contract during the Clinton administration and have pretty much dominated the scene ever since. They are the only ones that can come into a FOB and know exactly what logistics needs are and have them in place and operating in short order. They are good at what they do, but lots of personnel turnover.

    As to the IRA vs. Al Queda, I have little knowledge of the fighting in N. Ireland. However, if it is no different, as you claim, then the majority of the IRA core must be made up of people from different countries, not Ireland, and brought in to kill Irish people. If it is the same, then the IRA must be bombing the h*ll out of Irish citizens to get them to lose faith in the British govt's ability to protect them. Is this what's happening in N. Ireland?

    That said, I understand the gist of your point and can agree inpart. Here is how I see the difference. When factions of the IRA attacked innocent civilians by bombings in London, they were properly classified as terrorists. Albeit, their "end state" was the same as more conventional factions, their methods set them apart. I'm definitely no expert on the IRA, so maybe someone else from the region can shed some light here, but I seem to recall there was a major rift between the factions and eventually the attacks against civilians ceased. The "freedom fighters," or insurgents, to me would be the home BNs of the IRA that limit their fight to the POHMs (sorry to my British Army buds ).

    Another example would be the difference between the Irgun and the Palmach/Haganah while the Jews were trying to get the Brits to leave Palastine. The Irgun committed acts of terrorism (blowing up the King David Hotel in '46 and blowing up the British Embassy in Rome) while the Haganah stuck stricly to military targets. Even these acts of terorism are borderline though IMHO since they attacked official British govt offices, not just arbitrary citizens going to work on the bus or in the tube.

    Just my opinion. I'm sure many will disagree and say I'm trying to separate the fly sh*t from the pepper.
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  6. #116

    I dont want to fall out with people who disagree with me, but if you cant see that to some people, the fighters in Iraq are freedom fighters NOT terrorists, then you are just kidding yourselves. I am not saying its right, just how it is.

    Well...I suppose I'm just kidding myself then. I suffer from not having the insight or experience that you apparently have.

    We will have to agree to disagree. OTOH, I don't believe you are kidding yourself. I do believe you are misinformed and hope that you could actually talk to some Iraqi families. It might be enlightening, but could be disillusioning to one committed to certain beliefs or causes.

    Information has no "side." Facts are not right or wrong...they just are. How we associate them and evaluate them and form opinions are where can have discourse and disagreement.

    Just keep an open mind and be open to info from all sides, not just info that supports a tightly held and/or "popular" opinion.
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  7. #117
    Bearcat99's Avatar Senior Member
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    I dont want to fall out with people who disagree with me, but if you cant see that to some people, the fighters in Iraq are freedom fighters NOT terrorists, then you are just kidding yourselves. I am not saying its right, just how it is.
    I'm sure there are some. H@ll... to the above mentioned "freedom fighters" themselves... why they arent "freedom fighters" they are....... martyrs...... yeaaahhhhhh thats the ticket.... I wonder if the families of the Iraqi civilians killed by these "freedom fighters", some while they worshipped.... feel the same way... but again.... current events arent the issue.......
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  8. #118
    WWMaxGunz's Avatar Senior Member
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    End of WWII and West germany was occupied mostly by US troops and government.
    And there was no small amount of bad blood over it, many wrongs were done.
    Compared to the war it was paradise.
    That occupation was not over instantly.
    The terrorists did operate there and a some still do. It is not about freedom.

    Was West Germany in transition at the time or was West germany an American colony?

    Is West Germany somehow a puppet to America? If you think so then you need help.

    If any Iraqis think that violence will get the US out sooner they are IDIOTS.

    What is happening is mostly foreign to Iraq money and people go there to keep the US
    tied up and slow bleed and don't care at all for Iraqi people except to keep them
    from being independant.

    Iran wants to control Iraq. Saudi wants to control Iraq. The rest want some piece
    for themselves. None of them wants to see Iraq secular, all want to see failure.
    Iraq is perfect for that, easy to divide and lead by the nose and kill each other.
    How stupid these people are who can't see past one month let alone one year in a
    place so ancient and kids so impatient led by olders with agendas and dreams of power.

    God I wish that Bush wasn't so dumb. Iraq is now the most effective terrorist training
    camp in the entire world. Killing terrorists? It is just weeding out the losers while
    cranking up the recruitment worldwide. This ain't honor, it's idiocy. Iraq = tarbaby.
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  9. #119
    AKA_TAGERT's Avatar Banned
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    Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
    End of WWII and West germany was occupied mostly by US troops and government.
    And there was no small amount of bad blood over it, many wrongs were done.
    Compared to the war it was paradise.
    That occupation was not over instantly.
    The terrorists did operate there and a some still do. It is not about freedom.

    Was West Germany in transition at the time or was West germany an American colony?

    Is West Germany somehow a puppet to America? If you think so then you need help.

    If any Iraqis think that violence will get the US out sooner they are IDIOTS.

    What is happening is mostly foreign to Iraq money and people go there to keep the US
    tied up and slow bleed and don't care at all for Iraqi people except to keep them
    from being independant.

    Iran wants to control Iraq. Saudi wants to control Iraq. The rest want some piece
    for themselves. None of them wants to see Iraq secular, all want to see failure.
    Iraq is perfect for that, easy to divide and lead by the nose and kill each other.
    How stupid these people are who can't see past one month let alone one year in a
    place so ancient and kids so impatient led by olders with agendas and dreams of power.

    God I wish that Bush wasn't so dumb. Iraq is now the most effective terrorist training
    camp in the entire world. Killing terrorists? It is just weeding out the losers while
    cranking up the recruitment worldwide. This ain't honor, it's idiocy. Iraq = tarbaby.
    In 1941 it only took one attack to wake up this sleeping giant.. In 2001 everyone is so PC that they can not even call the enemy the enemy.. thus it will take more than one attack.. I only hope and pray that when it does come it can be shown that it came through out open southern boarder.. Then maybe.. just maybe we will toss the PC lingo to the side call a spade a spade and do the right thing which in turn will slove two problems in one.
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  10. #120
    WWMaxGunz's Avatar Senior Member
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    What you forgot Taliban and Afganistan?

    We never finished in Afganistan. Now we have Iraq and better trained terrorists than
    ever in history thanks to "We know where the WMD's are." which was a lie.

    In case you never watched the whole show, 9-11 attacks were not carried out by any army
    of any government. Only trail led to Afganistan and Taliban and Al Quaeda.

    Sleeping Giant or Drunk Texan with shotgun? Oh, I'm not being PC! Just realistic.

    Mexico? They come and go freely, 1 of 8 is inside the US. GOP wants to keep em here
    to work for less, errrr, do jobs Americans won't do (for 1/2 min wage, what they don't say).
    AFAIK at least one of the 9-11 bunch came in through Canada. Wanna invade there too?

    Budget for Immigration has been cut so bad that when illegal immigrants get caught in
    crimes the police don't bother notifying Immigration as they can't afford to respond.
    That must be something Clinton set up that Bush can't change in over 5 years, right?
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