1. #1
    Haven't been around for awhile because I got sick of listening to the crying over realistic take off distances (I mean, get some maxi-pads and get over it already), the general banality of this place, and not least, warding off advances from some of the types here that clearly have a crush on me.

    Kinda fell back into GT3 with GT4 just 'round the corner.

    But I haven't lost my interest in flying entirely, and I wanted to relate a recent occurrance that I think a lot of you guys would appreciate (on one level or antoher).

    A friend of mine who I haven't seen in some time dropped by my place last weekend. The last "sim" he flew was Lucas Arts' SWOTL. Might have been something a bit more recent, but, either way it would be, at most the 486, pre-Win95 days. So we're talking quite some time ago. And he hasn't played any game at all in a good while (no system really capable of it).

    So, just for kicks, I sat him down in front of PF with my Cougar+RCS. I gave him a run down of the most important controls, and asked him to take off in the P-40E I had just landed for him in the QMB. I offered some pointers along the way as well, but as minimal as possible to keep my influence down. Well, that didn't work out too well. He got off the runway (still on the ground), and flipped the plane.

    So then I walked him through the commands to restart the mission and this time, rather than taking the time to land it first, asked him to try to land it. Let's just say that the engineers had a lot to clean up and some landscaping to do. lol

    So then I walked him through the menu interface again and got him into a Yak3. Arguably one of the easiest planes to fly (can fly slow, very agile and not very stall prone), and asked him to try to land it.

    This time he at least was on the runway when he blew up. lol This one wasn't too bad really, he just hit a wee bit too hard.



    Seems that PF isn't quite so easy as so many have claimed afterall, eh? Much like Oleg himself pointed out, you've been at this for about 4 years, just on this sim alone, probably more time in other sims as well. The basics of flight, and the necessary coordination for the control set you have, you have down pat. Remember, this guy went off the runway and flipped when trying to take off because he had difficulty getting his brain wrapped around steering with his feet while on the ground, and because he wasn't used to working his limbs in such a fashion.

    And now for those of you will will once again try to tell me that landing and taking off aren't any indication (never mind that they are arguably one of the more difficult aspects of basic flight), on the landing attempts, he had to line himself up, and set up his approach. In the process of doing so, he nearly spun the P-40 and even managed to stall the Yak.

    I have my sliders toned down, but on a very nice, linear "curve". Offering fine control, and only full control at the back. There are no major jumps in control authority. I spent a lot of time working it out. Had it been 100's across the board, or some of the curves I've seen posted, he'd really have been in trouble. lol

    After seeing this experiment, you'd know that there would be no way this guy would be successful in combat. Even in a Yak3, even against Rookie AI in P-47s at Sea Level. He'd end up maneuver killing himself just trying.

    I told him the reason for that experiment was because many people here complained that it's "too easy" and "arcadish" (nevermind the stick time they have at this point), and he replied "It's certainly not easy. I think I'll be sticking to space games."

    Now, if I was to spend some time with him, and coach him through the basics, I could have him taking off, landing, and even able to shoot at some target drones, no doubt. But then, there were also kids with maybe 10hours of stick time flying late model 109s, and successfully (a reported high loss rate, but it wasn't all).

    So the point stands - PF isn't "easy". It's not "arcade". It has not been "dumbed down". If you think it's easy, it's partly because of the sheer amount of stick time you have, and partly because you got much of that in an unrealistically difficult FM, and have truly masted the basics of flight. And if your reference is modern pilot training, you're forgetting all the **** real pilots have to learn, know, and deal with that we don't simply because it is a sim, and how none of that **** FM related.

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  2. #2
    Bearcat99's Avatar Senior Member
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    What he said...
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  3. #3
    Well said DDT. I don't think PF is "easy", and in fact recall how hard it once was to get used to the physics built into the game, as well as the ins & outs of successfully pulling off combat maneuvers. Hundreds of hours at the stick helped iron that out a little, at least so I can safely call myself a rookie

    That said, comparing IL2/FB/PF/AEP with all the other modern sims I've ever flown, I'm let down with the landings in PF. Simply put, the only way to mess up your approach (once you're experienced with basic flight) is to be too slow, or have too high a rate of descent. In the FS series (yeah, I know, lots here hate MS), there's the added factors of wind, weight, traffic, visibility, and all of this can be widely tweaked via difficulty settings. In FB I've yet to find myself scared during an approach the way I've been many many times in FS2004.

    So, while I agree that PF isn't dumbed down, and in fact it's pretty challenging (especially for combat), the landings bite, IMO. Carriers are a different story of course.

    Now compared to CFS3 with the 1% FMs, well.. nevermind, ...
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  4. #4
    madsarmy's Avatar Senior Member
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    Nice post DDT

    My M8 gave PF a shot when he was at my place a few weeks ago. He used to fly a bit with the original IL2 so he was not a complete novice.
    He was blown away by how much this sim has progressed. He is now looking forward to getting a new rig in the near future to get FB/AEP/PF.
    I think he understands why I keep boring everyone with my flying talk.

    ps. He jumped about a foot off the chair when his plane was hit by a piece of flak.
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  5. #5
    BUMP!

    right on.

    from time to time I have had the thoughts of "is this arcarde-like" slipping into my head. All I need to do is remind myself of the sim's difficulty is remember that I've had years flying all sorts of flight sims up to now to home flight skills.

    or I can just sit my gf at the controls and watch the nearly tragic array of crashes stalls and single aircraft using the ammo supllies for an entire nation's annual war effort

    I agree blitzpig, this sim seriously rocks and any perception of arcade-ness is balderdash!
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  6. #6
    I can`t believe i am saying this DDT, this is the best post i`v seen in days. Agreed 100%.

    Most of us have thousends of hours flying time since IL2 demo was released...
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  7. #7
    Bearcat99's Avatar Senior Member
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    D@mmit Dex..... You're gonna make me go out and get FS2004 yet. Everytime you post about it it makes me say....should I ...... should I......
    and its been a while so you know I havent thought about it in a spell.....
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  8. #8
    KRISTORF's Avatar Senior Member
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  9. #9
    ElAurens's Avatar Senior Member
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    Well said DDT. There is so much nuance to this sim that we take for granted simply because we have thousands of hours of stick time. I know I personally put in more hours of time in a week than most new LW pilots had in 1945. The nay sayers (suprised none are here yet...)will no doubt be here soon to lay down their pet conspiracy theorys about this sim being dumbed down, and harder = more "real".

    Pfffffftttttt..... Their comments only expose their personal agendas to nerf aircraft that they fly agianst.

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  10. #10
    p1ngu666's Avatar Senior Member
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    fs2004 is nice, but i prefer how il2 flies..

    fs2004 just seems odd

    i agree with ddt
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