1. #21
    A 'method to estimate the effect' isn't the same thing as 'verifiable data' though, is it?
    You get a estimation of what it should be for the Ju88 at a given height and go verify it to see if your game approximates it.

    You wouldn't be floundering around wondering if your game is correct you had done that.

    Stop mucking around with the Wind and Turbulence too as that will effect your GE results in the real world too. It just clouds the progress at this point.
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  2. #22
    AndyJWest's Avatar Senior Member
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    Stop mucking around with the Wind and Turbulence too
    No. I've already demonstrated that it has significant influence on results - and not just in the ways that might be expected if wind and turbulence were all that was being modeled - look at my results. I'm not 'floundering around' in any case. I've demonstrated that W & T do this, and am now in a better position to exclude these effects, and look at how the sim models GE in their absence. What I can't do, however, is state that the model is wrong, based on 'estimations' that may rely on false assumptions. I'm more or less convinced that the model is wrong (based not just on my results, but on other evidence), but I'd rather base any criticisms of the model on evidence than estimates based on assumptions that may not be true.
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  3. #23
    M_Gunz's Avatar Banned
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    So we have THP which is power and we have T which is force as in T - D unless Drag is now power?

    Let's have it then.
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  4. #24
    Gunz,
    You don't have to deal with THP nor conversion factors, just use the Si-units and everything is logical and simple.

    But this is off topic. Over and out.
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  5. #25
    M_Gunz's Avatar Banned
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    I thought that thrust is a force and that would be independent of units. I still do.
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  6. #26
    I thought that thrust is a force and that would be independent of units. I still do.

    Thrust and drag are both forces and not powers.
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  7. #27
    AndyJWest's Avatar Senior Member
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    Is anyone actually interested in my attempts to explore ground effect modelling in IL-2? Or would they rather this thread continued as an experiment in nit-picking and pedantry?

    I happen to believe that it is possible to test the sim, rather than just spout endless unverifiable 'facts' and off-topic clever-d1ckery. I'm not sure there is much point though...
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  8. #28
    M_Gunz's Avatar Banned
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    Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I thought that thrust is a force and that would be independent of units. I still do.

    Thrust and drag are both forces and not powers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    And is the T in the parrot formula T = P * n / v the force T or the power THP?
    Because I used that formula (awk, awk!) and then it was T = thrust as a force.
    Was I wrong to to do that and should I never do so again?

    And you were precisely right bring it up as an example of a limited mathematical model.
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  9. #29
    M_Gunz's Avatar Banned
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    Originally posted by AndyJWest:
    Is anyone actually interested in my attempts to explore ground effect modelling in IL-2? Or would they rather this thread continued as an experiment in nit-picking and pedantry?

    I happen to believe that it is possible to test the sim, rather than just spout endless unverifiable 'facts' and off-topic clever-d1ckery. I'm not sure there is much point though...
    I think that you guys have gotten a lot of really good data and ran good tests.
    As I have seen is often the case, the interpretation is the sticky part which does involve a lot of speculation and
    subjects from outside a narrow range. In my 12 years experience as part of the FS community, this thread has been
    pretty tight compared to the majority!

    Just roll with it and ignore what bothers you. Some of us need an "oh yeah" moment and only if enough agree can there
    be a consensus. Would you want people agreeing to what they don't understand or hasn't been communicated?
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  10. #30
    na85's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally posted by M_Gunz:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I thought that thrust is a force and that would be independent of units. I still do.

    Thrust and drag are both forces and not powers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    And is the T in the parrot formula T = P * n / v the force T or the power THP?
    Because I used that formula (awk, awk!) and then it was T = thrust as a force.
    Was I wrong to to do that and should I never do so again?

    And you were precisely right bring it up as an example of a limited mathematical model. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    T is thrust, a force.

    n is dimensionless, and in general Power = Force * velocity, so if you divide power by velocity that leaves you with force on both sides of the equation. Therefore it is correct to use T = thrust not THP.
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