No, neither makes sense.Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Now if that can work for the Tea Party then why not for Muslim fundamentalists, huh?
I ask you, does either make sense? Or need to within itself? They preach hate and eat it with big spoons.
But one kills thousands and one protests impotently with misspelled signs.
You could argue that they're both products of the same social mechanism, but one is certainly much further afield than the other. Muslim fundamentalists are sheltered by states around the Muslim world. Are American terrorists sheltered by Canada or Britain?
Hate exists for a reason.
And there's a world of difference between ignorant, impotent, middle class hate and suicidal, all-encompassing hate. They may spring from the same source, but one certainly flows more vigorously.
And that's the problem.
Nobody will ever eliminate hate and ignorance from the world.
But a goal of humanity should be to drastically limit is effect upon society.
One area AQ has been immensely successful with is easily convincing many non-Muslims and those ignorant of Islam that AQ is a representative of Islam. If you believe AQ represents Islam then you are a tool, easily bought and used.
I've lived and hung out with Shiites, Sunnis, and even Taliban Muslims, both in Toronto and Egypt. These people came from Persia, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Palestine, Iraq, Libya, Sudan, Morocco, Egypt, and Afghanistan. I've participated in Jumu'ah in various mosques both Toronto and Egypt. I've also had discussions with an Imam at the Cairo University who is considered by many to been the equivalent to the Pope. That being said, I know a little,... literally.
The root of the problem is ignorance on both sides. Many on both sides are political tools. While the study of religion and history is very interesting, the practice of religion can be very dangerous and costly. It all comes down to the level of ignorance.
Just like every human I was born an Atheist and like many I remain one and suspect I will always be. This was, up until I took the initiative and I did my own studies, a choice. If you believe that all Muslims or all Christians are inherently aggressive then that's your choice. No one can force ignorance on another and conditioning is a weak excuse since most people have access to information.
BTW, being Taliban does not make one AQ nor does it make you Pashtun. In fact, some of you in here are Taliban and all of you once were. 'Talib' is Arabic for 'student' and 'Taliban' the plural. The "Taliban" you hear of in the news are an aggressive militant faction of a tribal Pashtun cultural based education in religion. They are hardly different from the Christian militant factions in the west and beyond. The news-worthy Pashtun Taliban faction does not represent all or even the majority of Pashtun Taliban nor do they represent Afghans and they surely do not represent Islam, just as America's Christian militant groups represent neither Christianity nor Americans.
It can be said that we on this forum are all IL2ers but it cannot be said we all fly *insert favorite plane here*. It can't even be said that we all still fly.
Whether you are talking about the koran or the bible, it all comes down to interpretations. What does it take to interpret either? First, you'd have to deeply understand the culture and the times the scriptures were written. To do that you have to live with those people for a long time. I've lived with the Chinese, in China, nearly 10 years and still today I am learning more about their culture. Since the scriptures were written a very long time ago it would be impossible to know the cultures of the authors. We cannot time travel (sorry Raaaid) and those cultures are long gone, having evolved into others.
Then you have to know the languages of the authors. Again, impossible to truly know it since you cannot know a language without knowing the culture. So we are left with interpretations written by scholars of whom we know nothing about. To add, their interpretations would be based on their own knowledge and experience. Your perception of everything you perceive is based upon your knowledge and life experience which as you know is unique. This means the only consistency in the interpretation would be the inconsistency, unless of course a certain group of interpreters has an agenda.
When you really think about it, any interpretation is as valid as another. This is why I strive to observe rather than interpret. Not easy,... but not impossible.
And if you want to go that route, then you need to examine why perhaps the Middle East is so angry at western countries.Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GoToAway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
The costs and lives were as a result of AQ.
Best Regards,
MB_Avro.
Here's a hint: It's not because people woke up one day and decided to hate random people.
This doesn't justify actions.
But history is nothing more than an endless chain of causality. You can't say "X caused Y" without acknowledging that W caused X.
Bin Laden was a bastard that needed to be put down.
But the problem will never go away until we understand the source of the hatred that he tapped into--a hatred powerful enough to compel people to kill themselves just to kill a few of the "enemy."
No man is an island.
Neither is any event in history.
If we can't understand this, then it doesn't matter how many bin Ladens we kill: they'll keep coming back. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
In other words by your logic:
Arabs/Muslims = Good
Christians/West = Bad
And no middle ground.
90% of the world is a nasty and dangerous place. Which 10% do you live in? And be thankful that you are allowed the right to debate. Do try not to take it for granted.
You inherited democratic freedoms. But you could loose them.
Best Regards,
MB_Avro. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't think that's what he is saying at all.. what he is saying is that nothing happens in a vacuum and today is the result of yesterday... just as surely as tomorrow will result from today. These people do not hate us because of our freedoms.. or our way of life.. The may find some of our ways abhorrent.. but that alone does not make people go against tanks with rocks and molotov cocktails.. and yes.... more of the world suffers everyday and goes hungry every day that we who enjoy the fruits of western wealth.. but you know ... suffering is relative.. that is one reason why people come over here from other countries and excell.. because much of what we take for granted they fully use and appreciate.. Just look at who is on the honor rolls of most public schools in the U.S.
Yes we inherited democratic freedoms.. but the process of making us forget them is a process that has been underway since the late 40s at least.. and went into high gear in the late 60s.. that's why today in many ways we are for the most part a nation that emmasculates it's men, pimps it's women, labotomizes it's youth, discards it's elderly and murders it's children in the womb.. almost as a matter of policy and it has become so common place that we do not even see it anymore.
And if you want to go that route, then you need to examine why perhaps the Middle East is so angry at western countries.Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GoToAway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
The costs and lives were as a result of AQ.
Best Regards,
MB_Avro.
Here's a hint: It's not because people woke up one day and decided to hate random people.
This doesn't justify actions.
But history is nothing more than an endless chain of causality. You can't say "X caused Y" without acknowledging that W caused X.
Bin Laden was a bastard that needed to be put down.
But the problem will never go away until we understand the source of the hatred that he tapped into--a hatred powerful enough to compel people to kill themselves just to kill a few of the "enemy."
No man is an island.
Neither is any event in history.
If we can't understand this, then it doesn't matter how many bin Ladens we kill: they'll keep coming back. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
In other words by your logic:
Arabs/Muslims = Good
Christians/West = Bad
And no middle ground.
90% of the world is a nasty and dangerous place. Which 10% do you live in? And be thankful that you are allowed the right to debate. Do try not to take it for granted.
You inherited democratic freedoms. But you could loose them.
Best Regards,
MB_Avro. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't think that's what he is saying at all.. what he is saying is that nothing happens in a vacuum and today is the result of yesterday... just as surely as tomorrow will result from today. These people do not hate us because of our freedoms.. or our way of life.. The may find some of our ways abhorrent.. but that alone does not make people go against tanks with rocks and molotov cocktails.. and yes.... more of the world suffers everyday and goes hungry every day that we who enjoy the fruits of western wealth.. but you know ... suffering is relative.. that is one reason why people come over here from other countries and excell.. because much of what we take for granted they fully use and appreciate.. Just look at who is on the honor rolls of most public schools in the U.S.
Yes we inherited democratic freedoms.. but the process of making us forget them is a process that has been underway since the late 40s at least.. and went into high gear in the late 60s.. that's why today in many ways we are for the most part a nation that emmasculates it's men, pimps it's women, labotomizes it's youth, discards it's elderly and murders it's children in the womb.. almost as a matter of policy and it has become so common place that we do not even see it anymore. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hey at least these days we don't start burn witches, start world wars or beat our wives to the same degree.
I don't think our problems are due to womens/sexual liberation or abortions for that matter. I think it has everything to do with an aspirational lifestyle based on "things" and status, coupled with lives that are to easy. It is the motto of "whoever dies with the most toys wins" that has led us to selling out the elderly, forgetting how to raise our children, emasculating men whereby they feel to be a decent man they have to provide women with status symbols to get sex and erodes our freedoms by pandering to corporations. **** it all for that matter and that's exactly why I am going to join the military. I'm not doing a job just to buy a big house and a car for a woman. Who might divorce me anyway because she's been blinded by TV fairy tales. Again....nothing to do with womens liberation...which I'm all for and everything to do with advertising. If advertising taught people to be better human beings that should look for value in life other than stuff, having the biggest ****, best house, best career and best dressed children we might be in a better place.
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Humans are meant to be risk takers and not idiotic drones. It all went **** up in the 20's.
We'll see. I probably won't learn anything as usual. I just want to get my head down, challenge myself, feel like I'm moving forward and not have any time to think. Because my damn brains like a circus at university.Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Out of the frying pan, into the fire, but who knows it might do you a world of good!
I've had enough of middle-class status obsessed students and everything that goes with them and just want to get out to working in a team with a bunch of professionals where if I do a good job I get maybe a nod of approval and if I do a bad job an earful/punching instead of snide comments or a wet "review" or "back to work interview". I like to know where I stand.
When I think about it, many interpretations are inconsistent with the majority of the teachings themselves. In the case of "funda-mental-ists", all the interpretations are 'special-case'. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
When you really think about it, any interpretation is as valid as another.
True and unfortunately many see the fundamentalists cases as being the common cases.
The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
I've seen a lot of them right in this country. Many have fed me sound bites from their special radio personalities. Those personalities make so much money telling people what to think that no way their audiences are small.Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
True and unfortunately many see the fundamentalists cases as being the common cases.
Not a majority but not just a few either.
I seem to recall seeing people dance in the streets in some places at news of the attacks in NYC on 9-11.
Not a few people either, large crowds dancing.
Not everyone but certainly not a small minority.
But of course it is unreasonable to assume that more than a very few of those joined AQ or went on to fight in Iraq later.
No, I don't equate Moslem with AQ or terrorists or anti-west. The Moslems I've known in this country are reasonable people only interested in leading their lives without trouble, being part of the country and enjoying the freedoms to be had. I know non-Moslems who I have liked less. Only thing is -all- of the Moslems I know ask to be sure that I am not a Jew and then on to the next question of any relationships I have with Jews. They were disappointed by my answer but got over it, I do have Jewish friends and am not automatically repelled by Jews. I ask them if that's a problem and they get embarrassed, then we talk about other things. BTW, I doubt any of them joined AQ but I could be wrong.
On the whole I've seen extremely far more trouble here over race. Change there is slow but at least it is happening.