1. #1
    Tater-SW-'s Avatar Senior Member
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    The B-25s and A-20G in PF have a number of issues that affect their usefulness and historical accuracy. There are a few catagories: loadout, aircraft AI behavior, and less important, target DM/behavior.

    LOADOUT:
    There is another loadout thread concerning the A-20 not carrying enough payload ( http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/t...3/m/1211027833 ).

    The B-25s have other issues.
    1. All B-25s should get the parafrag loadout. Many, if not most or all B-25C/Ds were converted to strafers.

    2. The parafrag loadout is low. 60-120 bombs would be more common. They were in groups of 3 that dropped together.

    3. Given that parafrags are modelled, a "para-demo" would be a nice addition. A 100lb bomb, wrapped in wire for schrapnel effect, with a drogue chute to ****** the fall. Even with a chute, they were set with 8-11 second delay fuses to prevent damage to the plane dropping them.

    AI BEHAVIOR:

    1. Low altitude land attacks with AI are virtually impossible, regardless of your skill and setting waypoints in the FMB. The planes execute a climb, then a shallow dive to attack instead.

    2. Once they do attack, if armed with parafrags, both the A-20 and B-25s execute a roll while dropping the bombs. Looks incredibly dumb.

    3. There is no coded skip-bomb behavior, so attacks have to be done with 1 plane flights, and it requires you to trick the AI to not do a climb/dive instead. Note that if there was a "skip-bomb" loadout, the AI could be told they were torpedos that need to be dropped from ~200 meters and skip-bomb coding is done for AI.

    4. Related to the above parafrag/skip-bombing AI issues is the fact that while "strafers" they will not strafe ships, or ground targets as they bomb---a main reason for their strafing guns in the first place. This is partially an issue to be discussed below under target behavior and DM. This is likely outside the il-2 engine at this point. A short-term fix might be to simply make sure the AI treats the A-20G and B-25s as LEVEL BOMBERS instead of fighter bombers, or dive bombers. It seems like there is a property to aircraft that determines overall AI behavior: level bomber, dive bomber, torpedo bomber and fighter. Better AI behavior for strafers might be as simple as changing this one parameter.

    5. The Ai in general needs a new waypoint toggle like the radio silence toggle for a given waypoint. It should force the plane to drop ord without the AI "thinking" about it if checked. Tell it to gaatck at 5m alt, and it just will, without doing anything else but flying the normalfly waypoint.

    TARGET BEHAVIOR AND DAMAGE MODEL:
    Yes, Il-2/FB/AEP/PF is NOT a tank sim or a ship sim. That said, to have anything like a realistic feel for ground attack combat some things need to be updated.

    1. Ships need to be harder to sink, but easier to damage. Smoke/damage effects with fewer hits, but harder to actually sink.

    2. AAA guns need to be supressed by MG fire, even if not killed outright. MG fire landing near AAA should stop it from firing, and "killing" AAA should perhaps only happen with a large cannon (30-40mm+?), bomb or rocket hit. Ground and ship AAA, BTW. (this happens after a fashion already, I guess, but the AI planes do not strafe/skip bomb so it only matters for players, AI just gets slaughtered)

    3. Runway cratering time needs to be a mission parameter, perhaps under "Conditions" as a global setting. It should be really simple like the dwell time of craters, and the minimum size crater that gets tracked with a dwell time (you can then tweak for FR by having a long dwell time, but requiring large bombs to minimiz the number tracked by the server). Online play really needs this so airfield supression means something short of just vulching.

    tater
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  2. #2
    You can get the AI to skipbomb. For details, you should go to the mission builder forum for details. AAA guns on ships can actually be suppressed. It also seems a feature where you can actually destroy the AAA on vessels only, that never hapened to me.
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  3. #3
    Tater-SW-'s Avatar Senior Member
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    Yes, I may have been the one who posted how to get the AI to skip bomb. As I said, single plane flights only, and you have to trick the AI by setting a normalfly waypoint within a few hundred meters of the actual gattack waypoint.

    None the less, the plane will immediately start climbing after it knows the next waypoint is gattack. I think you may be right about supressing the guns, though it is hard to tell just how much or how long this actually happens. I have strafed out guns on ships, but it is very hard. AI fighters won't strafe ships at all, however, nor will B-25s and A-20s except the B-25G/H, and even then they only fire the cannon at them.

    Regardless, this is "tricking" AI behavior, not actual skip-bombing, meaning that it is 100% scripted such that if the AI bomber were to get hit in an engine and slowed slightly, it would still fly the same waypoints and possibly drop into empty water well behind the scripted target. This is unlike AI torpedo bombers who can have a set target, and they willmaneuver to make a proper torpedo attack.

    In terms of PF AI, a skip bomb attack is just a torpedo attack that must be completed at very very short range.

    I did a number of tests with AI bomber recently. AI planes will not drop bombs if too low for fear of damage to themselves---EXCEPT torpedo bombers. TBs will happily drop a torpedo onto hard ground at 5m alt (blowing themselves up in the process) if you set a gattack waypoint. Parafrag attacks would be instantly possible (with planes flying at low alt) if the AI were told that the B-25J and A-20G were "torpedo bombers" and/or that the parafrag bomb loadout was actually a "torpedo." (assuming they fix the bombers making rolls while dropping parafrags).

    tater

    PS--I just checke dthe mission builder forum, and the how to get ai to skip bomb post is my own.
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  4. #4
    I call thee OLEG, here and note these comments for BOB, which will come

    Thus the last shred of sanity leaves, well not actually becoming a religion, the pseudo-mystical realtionship with Oleg as the invisible watching and critical mover force in IL-2 development, finally begins to go to seed.
    I can't believe I am part of this!
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  5. #5
    A.K.Davis's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:
    You can get the AI to skipbomb. For details, you should go to the mission builder forum for details. AAA guns on ships can actually be suppressed. It also seems a feature where you can actually destroy the AAA on vessels only, that never hapened to me.
    Only on ships introduced with PF, afaik. I have seen AA guns on the Japanese destroyer knocked out by gunfire, but it is difficult.
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  6. #6
    Tater-SW-'s Avatar Senior Member
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    You are right regarding supression, to the effect it is there it is only on the PF ships.

    tater
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  7. #7
    AI Aircraft will straffe ships. They just need to be armed with 37mm or better.

    I would like to see all planes able to straffe ships. Even those armed with rifle calibre weapons. Such as the Ju87 and Val.
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  8. #8
    Tater-SW-'s Avatar Senior Member
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    Yeah, which defeats the purpose of the PTO strafer-bombers (armed with many 0.50 cals). In fact, large numbers of the 75mm cannon armed B-25G and Hs had the unpopular cannon removed, and replaced in the field with 2 more 50s.

    For player-flyable planes, the existing bombadier gun was frequently fixed forward, 2 more added on each side through where glazing should be, and the whole greenhouse in front painted over. So many B-25Js (field mod) would have had no bombadier position (eliminate it from the model as a position) and 5 pilot fired guns added (for a total of 9 forward 50s). I'll scan some pictures later.


    http://www.grafixnpix.com/wwii/5thaaf.htm
    Note that on this aircraft they only painted over part of the glazing on the bottom. Some were unpainted, some were totally painted. For a PF variant, just assume the painted over nose and delete the bombadier/nose gunner positions, and add 2x0.50 cal to the external art. That's it, no other modification needed. BTW, I believe it was 500 rounds per gun ammo.

    tater
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  9. #9
    Tater-SW-'s Avatar Senior Member
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    Punt for ending the rolling while dropping ord medium bombers!

    tater
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  10. #10
    Bump. Tater, your original post was an model of a bug post, IMHO--a detailed description of a problem, possible reasons for it, and (some) simple suggestions for fixes, all without a hint of griping. I sure hope that Oleg will take notice.
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