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This sounds like fun. So basically what we do is analyze and guess how we could beat you and then you tell us "yes, that is how you could probably beat me"?Originally posted by Lexovix:
Well this should be interesting.
I'll post up a replay and type up a brief guide if anyone gets on the right track.
Ok, I'll start with an analysis, so suggesting counters is easier for everyone. Note that I have not played Lexo. Maybe in beta once or so, but I can't really remember.
Let's take a look at what Lexovix does in his matches. I am basing this on the replays from him I found on Rusereplays.com (except the one against Wolfy where he spammed AA and admin buildings).
1. He builds a barracks, builds a few Willies and techs to Rangers.
2. He sees what you are starting with and builds the appropiate counter.
-Tanks or Inf+armored recon -> AT base + 1-3 wolverines
-AA/Arty base -> tech to M40, build up to 3 M40s
-AT base -> increase ranger output and depending on enemy nation either a few AT guns or continues to M40 a bit later
-Baracks -> more rangers, he can always have more rangers than you
-Air, Nothing + Camo or Brits -> AA + 3 M16s, note that he may choose to use Bofors instead (variables: map, lost M16s, heavy air). On spacey maps or against heavy air he may decide to get some air himself.
Note that there were not many replays with him and that he tends to heavily vary what counters to use on the enemy nation and what units you are actually building. There is no 100% way he will do it, but you can assume that you are always hard countered no matter what you do.
No matter what you do, he will also be producing Rangers to secure map control.
3. He spreads throughout 'his side' of the map, taking map control with very well spread out units. He slowly builds up on the counters he needs against you. This also includes the tech he needs.
A normal picture from his battle formation in this phase:
[IMG=http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/2272/lexocounterscreen.jpg][/IMG]
Note how he spreads out. It makes him less vulnerable to artillery and lets him react to everything the enemy does. If the enemy attacks somewhere, he will quickly contract his forces there or fall back while building more counters.
4. During all of this, he goes for a rather resource-heavy approach, collecting as much resources as he can secure. He also seems to float a minimum of 80$ while going with the absolute minimum units required to counter what you currently have so he can build whatever counter he pleases should you change your tactic or choose to attack.
5. He builds up his counter screen until he has a bazillion rangers, many Jacksons and the other counter units (M16, M40) he needs to secure his advance.
6. The defense screen collapses into one heavy and unstoppable push. To beat back the bazillion rangers you need many (light + medium) tanks but his Jacksons are right behind his rangers and will have a larger range than your light and medium tanks. If you have advanced heavy tanks you most likely won't have enough to kill everything before it kills you. You either get swarmed by infantry or the Jacksons pick you apart. Advanced heavies + micro can work here but Lexo knows when to regroup, so he will only lose a few rangers. His AA is screening him and the M40s destroy any squishy opposition you try. Inf, AT guns or artillery are all destroyed by his up to 3 M40s.
You lose.
Ok, here starts my 'what could help' part.
So what are possible weak points?
-M40s: They are expensive and armor 1 gets destroyed by all FBs. Suiciding a cheap FB vs. those could pay off quickly if it allows your ground forces to destroy more of his stuff.
-M16s: He normally deploys them in teams of 3 because those tend to shred everything before it can deal too much damage. If you manage to take a few out, he gets holes into his defense that need to be plucked. Also artillery might work, but be wary of the M40s. If he loses too many, he will likely go Bofors instead.
-Depots: He really wants those resources. Make him earn them. Shoot depots with artillery (either cheap 10$ ones or assault guns) or bomb them. His AA can't be everywhere and if you lose a 10$ artillery piece to his M40s you still gain an advantage. It is likely that a new depot will go up quickly because he is floating resources.
-He runs the minimum of units required to counter you while floating resources to build counter units. If you take out key units he will have to deploy new ones of the same type.
Overall I think you need to try to bleed him and then destroy him before he can do his end-push. But be careful, his intention is to counter you. This means that if you are not sure you will 100% get more points out of a jab than him, don't do it.
What units would I suggest for beating him?
Generally I see the need for some sort of assault gun. Early game some light artillery for 10 or 15$ or a rushed assault gun could allow you to snipe a depot before he can counter. Do not get heavy artillery. It is too expensive and he will just shoot it with M40s to make you unhappy.
Germany: Stugs (don't upgrade to Sturmtigers), Jagdpanthers and either PzIV, Panthers or Tigers could work. The armor and unit combination should allow you to just push through.
UK: Well... good luck. Maybe you can get a mix of their Proto units + archer TDs to work, but I doubt it.
France: SAU 40s + B1 BIS. Add a few 5$ or 10$ AT guns if you can snipe his M40s with Guppies. He will always be able to outrun you, so play smart.
Italy: No idea, don't play them much but the stats of their units don't look like you can beat Lexovix unless you get a really open map where you can harrass a lot.
Russia: ISU-122, SU85 $ SU100 (they should beat Jacksons) and a mix of infantry (stronger than rangers). Maybe one of their heavy bombers to waste rangers.
Overall it is one hell of a combo and there is no 'easy way' to beat it. You'll still need good micro.
Member
Wow...
The best thing I've seen. Give that man a cat or something.
As funny as it is that you wrote out a guide to defeating a particular player, its even better because its all smart, solid stuff.
Then again, the only times I've beaten Lexovix I've simply mirror matched him.
But yours would work as well!
Member
I think this topic sucks. It's basically a 'big up Lexovix' or whatever his name is.
He is a defensive player who uses the map to his advsntage. Whenever people play him they feel the need to harrass him or try to play offensively. DON'T. This is playing into his hands.
The best way to play against these players is to play him at his own game. CAMP, TURTLE and smash him with artillery. He only builds units to oppose you at the start. So, take 4 depots maybe a barracks, and a decoy airfield with decoy air units. Build up resources & keep an eye on what he is doing. Don't play offensively just play him at his own game.
There is no reason why he should be able to have map control with counter units, defensive units are designed to be hidden in woods / towns etc, bring him out onto the battlefield.
Finally, because of his defensive nature he rarely takes 'map control' from the start of the game, preferring to guard his own depots and this is why many people are falling at the first hurdle. So take advantage of this.
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ihcsO... That was amazing.
I love you, and want to have your babies.
That analysis was really impressive.
Kind of lolin' that this is a 'How to beat Lexovix' thread. Rather needs to be how to beat USA's main strat guide, there has been far too much crying about it being OP.
About the analysis.
The weakpoint notes was good, didn't cover M40's inaccuracy and relatively low damage for cost however. - That said, the M40's are still required for the strat, meaning that USA needs to pump out the $200+ on getting 3 M40's out, regardless of how little unarmoured units there are. (Example: Tank assault covered with stugs and perhaps 5 spaced infantry units. Presuming the stugs kill off my infantry wave, my TD's will be forced to retreat simply due to a few opposing blitz'd+fanatcism'd infantry. Thus the need for the M40 investment, regardless of situation.)
This allows opponent to have an extra $200 in armoured units, enough so to be able to break a line of jacksons, presuming they have maintained the same economic level as the USA player.
On the suggestions, the information in the 'Generally' section is spot on, very useful read there, but didn't cover the usefulness of barracks with tankettes/armoured recon in it though. Just one of those will force a $50 investment into AT and wolverine, chewing up USA starting counter money, often allowing a bomber depot snipe, or two, too land.
Germany and Russia suggestions work, as long as there is one or two AT or a few infantry included.
UK/France/Italy arn't correct, i'll hunt down some replays for you...
Here is an XoY(France) Saminskip(USA) game...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lerDGf4GYw
XoY is in my opinion the best player of this game, and has been for a long time. Go hunt down his replays/forum posts for tips and strats.
Rather annoying when trying to demonstrate tatics, but I reformatted a few days ago, only have limited already uploaded replays to go off.
Hopefully Hoppa has the replay of a recent match against him available. It shows an example of how to exploit the strat with perfect decoy use with italy, giving the economic advantage needed to win mid/late game with that faction.
And XoY or Wolfy hopefully has one or two UK v USA matches around somewhere demonstrating good use of 5 hurricane depot snipes.
Member
Just so that I am being productive, for those that don't quite get it.
The M40 is used to put your opponent "on the clock" so to speak. Once a decent US player has 3-4 M40s active, you are in a race against the clock to either destroy the M40s, thus breaking the defensive wall and winning the game, or having your base beaten into the ground slowly.
Member
Babies? Bus bauen!OThat was amazing.
I love you, and want to have your babies.
That analysis was riginally posted by Lexovix:
ihcsO... really impressive.
[...]
About the analysis.
The weakpoint notes was good, didn't cover M40's inaccuracy and relatively low damage for cost however. - That said, the M40's are still required for the strat, meaning that USA needs to pump out the $200+ on getting 3 M40's out, regardless of how little unarmoured units there are. (Example: Tank assault covered with stugs and perhaps 5 spaced infantry units. Presuming the stugs kill off my infantry wave, my TD's will be forced to retreat simply due to a few opposing blitz'd+fanatcism'd infantry. Thus the need for the M40 investment, regardless of situation.)
This allows opponent to have an extra $200 in armoured units, enough so to be able to break a line of jacksons, presuming they have maintained the same economic level as the USA player.
[...]
Germany and Russia suggestions work, as long as there is one or two AT or a few infantry included.
UK/France/Italy arn't correct, i'll hunt down some replays for you.
Is everyone making fun of me or do you guys srsly like my analysis? :P
And why complain about "how to fight Lexo"? I'm sure many people will try to copy that style.
Hm... yeah, I think I should have put more emphasis on M40s. The (fake) tankette idea is cool, I didn't think about that. I don't use as much infantry since I started playin a lot of France. Those 10$ legionares add up after a while :/
Why is it wrong with France? I guess this is how I play against most other opponents with france so I'd just try that as well, especially sacrificing guppies for M40s. I don't play much UK/italy, so no idea about those.
Member
I've stood against the M40-Jackson-M19 combo. I'm not saying my opponent was good or bad at the strat since I can't compare to your experience.
But I've found it useful to take out the recon. There's always a way to destroy it, even if it means sending troops on suicide missions, it will at least stop the M40 shooting up your base.
After that I build a mix of Assault guns and Obice (Italy), the latter stood out of range for the M40. M40 and Jackson are fulnerable to a pounding if they got no eyes and they got weak armour compared to most units. After that the M19 were easy pickings.
Maybe building sextons would also work if you're Britain, just thinking out loud here. Combine with 'canes that can take out part of the troops too.
I think the key to success is mostly just having more troops than the opponent playing this USA strat. Taking out the recon will slow him down.
Maybe you could also try to sneak a few units out the back door, depending on the map, and rush/attack his base. But this is risky and often (near) impossible.
