1. #101
    Hi, Stafroty

    Thanks, and no worries - we all have our moments.



    Just posting quick before I go out to work. Looking forward to hearing from you and will check later today.




    Best regards,
    panther3485
    Share this post

  2. #102
    Hiya, CD_kp84yb

    luftluuver did provide an interesting link to the T-34 (which I had a quick look at - it does seem to provide a reasonable amount of info).

    Was this enough, or would you like more? I can help explain aspects of interior layout, if that would help. Later on down the track, when I work out how to post illustrations, I can do that as well.


    Best regards,
    panther3485
    Share this post

  3. #103
    Originally posted by panther3485:
    Hiya again, Stafroty

    Sorry about the delay, but I underestimated just how long it would take me! Here goes:


    My Quote 1:
    First, the radial engine of the P-47 was air-cooled and during flight, there was a constant, high-volume flow of air through the inside of the engine cowling, around the cylinders, exiting mostly via the cowl flaps. There was little chance of a buildup of petrol vapour around the engine itself. If a fuel connection near the engine was leaking a little, the vapours would immediately be swept away.

    Your Answer 1:
    “So, how can one make leak on fuel tank, and make it on fire then, on fast moving airplane?,…. …. with your thinking, airplanes werent ever burning, when they were in air…..”
    My response 1:
    You seem to have misunderstood what I said.
    I wasn’t stating that fires are unable to start in a moving airstream.
    I was merely highlighting the difference in potential for petrol vapours to accumulate in the enclosures around each engine.

    In the case of the Tiger (and, for that matter, to a greater or lesser degree, most tanks) the armoured compartment can become a ‘vapour trap’, that allows fuel vapours to accumulate in pockets. This generally could not occur in the area surrounding the engine of a P-47 in flight.

    In addition to this, with a more substantial leakage (from whatever cause) in a tank, you can also get puddles of spilt fuel that do not readily drain off. This also would be most unlikely in the enclosure around the P-47’s engine.

    Hence, in addition to whatever other hazards there may be, in the case of the tank we also have the distinct possibility of spilled fuel and/or fuel vapours that tend to accumulate, rather than being cleared. This means a more or less constant threat, at least until the cause of the leakage/spillage is found and repaired.



    *****i think we understood both of this wrong in the start. i was bringing up the point, that how is P47 engine more capable of dealin damage than tieger tank would be dealing fire.
    See, people mostly think, that P47 engine is something more than an engine, even if it had hits on engine and it made it home, same think did happen with other planes. Same thing happened with other planes, that engine hits were enought to bring plane down, anyplane. Those lucky times where Jug pilots survived are there in history, jsut to tell that they were lucky, not because of marketing of that plane(or is it) if you ask the pilots who flew those badly damaged planes themselfs, they would definatly say that they didnt trust the engiene 100% even when under fire. it was engine among other ones. in game some engines take Much more hits than others, just bacause they have bigger HIT POINTS and ARMOUR value. , like Jug, Late US fighters (corsair etc) and FW, and some others. this was the point i was taking here, the cross examine the tiger tank killing mentality (its engine) versus Jug or others.*****

    My Quote 2:
    This was not the case with the Tiger tank, where there was barely sufficient airflow to feed the carburettors and radiators. Even that airflow had to be channeled to certain parts of the engine bay, leaving most of the rest with substantial 'traps', or cavities where petrol and/or petrol vapours could accumulate if there was a leak.

    Your Answer 2:
    “for sure, if you pour gasoline over exhaust pipes of the engine which are HOT, and, if engine block was shot open, there is device makin sparks yes? also, exhaust pipes could shot open, so there would be get the heat for igniting the fuel, as well enought heat for igniting could be get from HEI ammo, the incendiary part, yes?
    of course not with your mentality. What else explanations you get for your biased thinking about Jug engine and others, like FW”


    My Response 2:
    Sorry, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. Are you referring to the potential for fire if the P-47 engine is damaged? If so, I would have to agree with you that this potential does exist, which would also be true of pretty much any engine that suffers a direct hit sufficient to cause the sort of damage you mentioned. But the problem is, this is not really relevant to what I was talking about.

    *****it is kinda relevant with this issue, after all. becauce, there is people with this mentality, that their ride cannot be destroyed easily, as there were cases in history, as people was lucky and unlucky. i yet cant understand what kind of engine without armour cover can withstand hit or hits from 20mm HEI, depends of course the hit location, but, oil lines, fuel lines, spark plug cables,, everyting were there, as well as in tank engine, and i think that AC engine has them more tightly packet than tank with some extra room cause of its not so needed high speed character was not so needed as it was with AC:s.
    and, you here assume, that tank engines has to leak fuel whatever right fromt he start, but AC engines arent? why are AC:s in top conditition and tanks are not? why not bring them both under same rules. and even beacuse of that, there still is Flight"sim" we play. Use rockets or bombs if you get pissed off because of tigers, like they used to kill them in real*****

    Tank engines obviously have more protection from smaller calibre hits than aircraft engines (on account of the armour compartment surrounding them). However, that is only one of a number of different kinds of risks. In battle, some risks are greater for aircraft than for tanks. Some other risks are greater for tanks than for aircraft. By all means, compare the risk of tank ‘A’ with tanks ‘B’ and ‘C’. Compare the risk of aircraft ‘A’ with aircraft ‘B’ and ‘C’. But comparing risk for an aircraft with risk for a tank is of limited usefulness in this discussion. It is impossible to make an ‘apples for apples’ evaluation if we use these kinds of comparisons.

    ******is the mass what tank engine has to drag along withitself more than the mass what propellor has to drag with grippin the air. this is one risk tanks have bigger than AC:s, its quite soft to make propellor go around when you compare it to tracks, which pulls some +50ton mass all around. I still say, that AC engine is MUCH more ease to be disabled with even light machinegun fire, any of the directions. (well, fuselage(and all what is inside it) covers engine from 6oC shots. there isnt much fragments going at engine, but whole ammo fo anykind, not those light pieces.*******

    My Quote 3:
    A leak could start and the crew would not immediately be aware of it, perhaps not until the next regular maintenance stop.

    Your Answer 3:
    “if leak is that small, does it really bother? btu sure if its 0n Tiger, its matter life and death, yes?”

    My Response 3:
    First, even smallish leaks could lead to build-up of fuel vapour in the engine compartment area. It doesn’t take long.
    Second, I didn’t say that the leaks were always necessarily ‘small’. Sometimes they were more than that and created ‘spill’, not just vapour. After that, it depended on the circumstances, as to how long it would be before a leak was detected. The degree and duration of risk could vary considerably.
    Third, I am not trying to say that this problem was exclusive to the Tiger, nor even that it was confined only to German tanks (though the Panther was quite bad to begin with).


    *****so tank engines should leak right from the start so you could light up them with .50cal? how about same with shermans and other tanks, as well, 7,92mm machinegun should be able to turn anytank as flaming pit? How much you think those tanks were shot at with light, heavy and even cannon fire during war, you think that no HOT fragment ever fell from the Armor grilles at the engine compartment? Thos tanks, every tank almost were target for any gun there was, just for possibility to lock turret on its place with lucky shot at turret ring.

    Some told that Grusader tanks were able to put up on fire, if just round did go over exhaust gases close enought, so, it would mean, that there is vapours of gasoline, unburned in the exhaust gases, id say. tigers and panthers had exhaust pipes in the end of the tanks.******

    My Quote 4:
    Second, the P-47's engine and fuel tanks did not share the same compartment.

    Your Answer 4:
    “can you define, how is the Fuel transferred to engine? with magic?? what about oil?”

    My Response 4:
    How fuel is transferred is one thing. Distance and separation of components is another. As a general rule, fire is more likely to engulf a whole system quickly, when all the various system components are clustered very close together in one main compartment. However, this is another factor and this is where I somewhat over-simplified my previous explanation, in an attempt to be brief. My apologies for that; I shall now clarify this point also.

    *****doesnt mean anything, there were armour between those compartments, with small holes. now you prefer that gasoline would leak those amounts that it would go through all the holes. How much you want to destroy those Tiger tanks with .50cals? why did they even use or carry bombs, if .50cals were enought? *****

    The rear third (approximately) of the Tiger’s hull was the ‘Engine Compartment’. This in turn, was divided again into essentially three ‘partitions’. [I will use the term ‘partitions’ in this way, to avoid confusion with the term ‘compartments’, which were the main defined areas of the tank’s interior].


    ******'
    http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...755_a_1_sm.jpg

    http://www.matotoys.com/images/big/n...r%20tank-1.jpg

    see first pic, it clearly shows, where is Engine, in the middle of the radiarors, between armoured walls, now, you say, that fragments of what soever were able to go thru grilles, go thru that wall and then ignite the tank. sure. how many holes you see between radiator and engine compartment in upper pic where fragmenst could penetrate the wall. or were .50cals able to fly first 90deg dive thru grilles, then turn 90deg cuver and penetrate that wall between compartments??******


    see that photo,

    The central partition housed the engine, along with many of the fuel system’s parts (including feeds for 4 Solex double carburettors), lines, connectors etc. It was not ventilated as such; normally, the only significant intake of air was for the air filters/carburettors and this had armoured covering. [The Tiger had also been designed with a schnorkel attachment point, so the engine could breathe during deep wading, but after the initial production batches this was not used.]

    *******and?*******

    Each of the two side partitions housed fuel tanks, lines etc, together with the radiators, cooling fans and ducting. These partitions were quite well ventilated, in particular via the ducting for the radiators but there was also ‘flow-by’ ventilation over the fuel tanks. The side partitions were relatively open to the air through the grilles above (they had to be, to permit the required cooling air flow). All of this helped considerably to release fumes from the side partitions only , but was of little help if there was any significant amount of spillage from larger leaks or punctures.

    *********you really ask one from the million shot in the game, how can you be so sure,that it isnt modelled right now? or, if you talk about real life, we need some report fromt the side which were under attack and only weapons used were .50cals, which also made tanks die.*********


    Although the partition walls effectively separated the central partition from the two outer partitions, all three contained major parts of the fuel system which, among other things, required openings in the partition walls for hoses etc. If any sort of serious fire started in one partition, and could not quickly be extinguished, it would soon spread to the others and engulf the whole Engine Compartment area.

    ******how often have you been witnessin that? or is this in your wish list? i undrstand you to assume and hope alot.*******

    To answer the question in your later post, apart from the vehicle's external armouring and the partition walls, there was no additional protection for any of these components, at least, not in the basic design of the tank. However, as mentioned in my other posts before, improvised protection was later made for the fuel tanks, which, along with the radiators, were found to be quite vulnerable to damage from bullets/bullet splash/shrapnel entering through the large openings in the ventilation grilles. This didn’t solve the problems altogether, of course, but it did help.

    *****show me P47 or FW, or corsair, anything, which has more protection around its critical parts than does Tiger have. Why dont you whine for better ignition of those items in game, not for tiger? and why only tiger? wasnt Sherman using Gasoline? why you have this BIAS in your destination?********

    My Quote 5:
    But in the Tiger, fuel tanks, fuel pumps, fuel lines, engine etc were all sharing the same basic compartment.

    Your Answer 5:
    “yes, everything and every part waiting for just that one lucky shot from .50cal what YOU NEED TO GIVE TO IT, it seems”

    My Response 5:
    No, not just specifically .50 cal. Anything metal that could fly fast enough, hit hard enough and was small enough to enter those grille openings. The damage might have obvious, immediate effects, but not always. In some cases, it might not be noticed until it was too late (for example, overheating and immobilization of the vehicle at a critical time, due to cooling system damage.)
    Sources of such potential damage included various kinds of small arms, MG fire (whether from an aircraft or otherwise), or merely the ‘splash’ from such gunfire. And also, of course, many types of shell splinters and shrapnel. Their kinetic energy, combined with the fact that they were also usually extremely hot, constituted a significant hazard. Fuel could spill from a punctured fuel tank, and ignite. Fuel vapour, or fuel spillage from leaks, could be ignited.

    ******If there is holes between walls seperating both sides, it means, that: any round, first hits grilles, then it should hit the floor, then ricoched towars hole and there, it should hit the floor. right? if you want radiator damage, it still doesnt blow up in real, it just makes thermometer cauges show high temps, till cauge starts to show somethign else than liguid temp, that would inform the crew/driver, that there is leak in the radiator system, because of the air attack. Again if you look at the 3 compartment picture, where radiator is lifted on its place, does it look, like that radiator has some armour on its top? didnt they take Air threat in adress when they were plannin tigers?
    you have an significant hazard in somewhere else than IN tiger ******

    My Quote 6:
    Ventilation was from the top only and relied completely on the fans.

    Your Answer 6:
    “does your car engine need fan? when its parked and engine running? what kind of proof is that?”

    My Response 6:
    This was only stated to emphasize that ventilation relied on the fans, with air flow both entering and exiting through engine deck grilles. The Tiger’s airflow requirements (more than many other tanks) dictated the size of these openings to be very large. This allowed effective cooling but at the same time, it also meant greater vulnerability vis-à -vis air bursts or air attack, given that all grille openings faced squarely upwards and had no cover.

    ******is there any tank which ventilation, coolin isnt relief of fans? and it seems, that you can hit the FAN wing, not the fan engine itself.


    http://www.twenot.nl/Specials/Panther/breda07.jpg tiger

    http://www.twenot.nl/Specials/Panther/Panther_D31.jpg tiger

    http://www.twenot.nl/Specials/Panther/koblenzPant8.jpg Panther G

    http://www.twenot.nl/Specials/Panther/Overloon02.jpg Panther

    http://members.tripod.com/~dietmagic/PanEng1.jpg panther

    http://members.tripod.com/~dietmagic/PanEng7.jpg panther


    http://members.tripod.com/~dietmagic/PanEng7.jpg panther

    and, it seems that the holes werent direct thru the grilles, Just like is in Leopard 2 and Abrams tail section, you cant shoot thru them without cannon, they ricoched the rounds at direction where they are no harm. sure, you can shoot thru them with 25mm bushmaster AP ammo (sabot?) as was done in Irag, at least one abrams was disabled by own Bradley fire from rear.

    posted panther pics as well, as it would be next in line.
    What is diffence of RHa and face hardened steel ?
    ********


    My Quote 7:
    In short, the vulnerability was created by the armoured chamber around the engine, which acted as a trap for petrol vapour. And there were so many lines and connections that the chance of one leaking was fairly high.

    Your Answer 7:
    “i think there was much more connections and lines in Jug engine, as it was radial engine, did the fans of the Tiger, keep all the vapours inside the tank? just for makin it easy for air attackers?, is that the same reason, why Molotov cocktails were so efficient? is that the reason why Finnish army even got factory (alc producing plant) to make molotov cocktails for close range weaponry (actually, they needed to be touchin the tank, for gettin the bottle over engine air takes, this way, shuttin engine cos of no air to keep system running. also, burgning electricity cables to make shorcuts.. what would fire make there, there is witnesses, where there been enemy tank, defenders couldnt make engine stop, so, one of them took Jerry can and pour it on the tank, explosion of jerry can. the pourer flew but was quit ok. Still, fire in engine comppartment isnt treated as kill, even if the fire is from its own gas or from outside.”

    My response 7:
    (a) Comparison with the P-47 is not really relevant, for reasons already mentioned above.

    *****you say that Jug/FW/corsair etc hard engines are too hard to take out? *******

    (b) The fans would help to clear fumes from the two side partitions of the engine compartment but would have no effect on the central partition. Nevertheless, in the side partitions, fuel spillage could still be started from a splinter or bullet/bullet fragment puncturing a fuel tank/line and a fire could start if the spilled fuel ignited.
    (c) Molotov cocktails act in a different way, as flammable liquid that is already burning will enter the openings in the rear deck of the tank.
    (d) Fire in the engine compartment, if not extinguished fairly quickly, will result in very serious damage and immobilization, at least. This did not always necessarily lead to total irrecoverable loss (as a number of less extensive burn-outs could be repaired), but often it did. In any case, the tank was, for all intents and purposes, out of action for the duration. Please yourself whether or not you regard this as a ‘kill’.

    *****you just still want to kill everything with .50cal? have they tried .50cals against satellites? battleships at least would sink ******

    ******As you notice, i tired with this stupid issue.********


    My Quote 8:
    To attempt to ventilate the entire engine compartment, in such a manner as to adequately and constantly clear all fumes, was not feasible within the parameters of armour protection that were demanded in the Tiger's design.


    Your Answer 8:
    “Fumes were 100% explosive, and for sure, did explode the tank in bits if there was even spart near the tank”

    My Response 8:
    (a) Explosion from petrol vapour is not always certain (depends partly on mix of air/oxygen with the fumes in a certain range of ratios). Sometimes, you can get an effect that might be described as ‘flash ignition’, without much in the way of a perceptible ‘explosion’ (really, a minor type of ‘explosion’ but when there is less containment). Either way, it’s dangerous and certainly a fire risk, definitely not good for the tank!

    ******Tank would suffer alot if gasoline would bit burn there, you sure know everything about tanks, and still are stucked with one idea. you sound like Buzzaw, abit. I wasnt serious witht the explosion, you know? ive burned my hand making 95 octane fuel "explosions" when was younger ) did even pour my bare hand with fuel and ignited it. not many sec could keep it still (everything gotta be tested mentality) ******

    (b) Explosions, if confined to the engine compartment area, would generally not ‘explode the tank in bits’. It normally wouldn’t even if APHE shot, from another tank, penetrated the engine compartment and exploded. Often the engine hatch, grilles, and other relatively ‘loose’ parts on the deck would be blown open and/or upwards, releasing the forces of the explosion like a ‘safety valve’ and leaving the main armour shell essentially intact (this wasn’t always the outcome of an engine compartment explosion, but it was the usual one that could be expected in most cases).

    *********small amount of pressure, isnt enought to throw looseparts like Grilles open if its fuel vapours which ignites, they might move upwards, but not flew open.
    Even small abount of HE, like in cannon round (APHE) would not be enough for that. (of course, it should be one helluca big APHE round with lots of He stuff in it. you seem to have picture where engine compartment explosion (by what?) made tanks go bits? because of those pictures, or because direct hit of the bomb? or because of the demolition exlosives? where have yuou got the idea that engine compartment would explode like Devil itself? from movies? with your mentality, Car engine should be able to explose as well and torn the car in pieces and pour in flames just when bumber touches other cars bumber******


    If the fire burned long enough and hot enough, ammunition within the tank would then cook off, creating more large explosions,

    ******cookin off means that powder would burn up creating over pressure and high temp in tank. later on, would the HE warheads start to burn, or even explode. You can burn TNT, it would not explode, but, if you even hose it with water, big chansed that it WILL explode. even bit of Ke is enought for it to bang. dunno about detonators of the rounds, they have hexogen or such, which still is placed inside TNT in many times*****


    but even this sometimes did little more than blow open hatches, loosen the turret from the ring, lift the turret roof etc (occasionally turret blows right off). By this stage, torsion bars would collapse from the extreme heat, lowering the tank noticeably (you can see this effect in some photos of burned-out Tigers and Panthers).

    *****to get turret fly you need to explode the HE stuff itself, like on turret ring hit on T-72 etc, to soften up parts, it needs quite alon time to make it happen, and now you want that happen instant because of small spark you want to go through armour wall? or because already damaged engine/fuel lines leakin fuel for just for you to be able to put em on fire.

    What would make those systems to leak fuel so much? how are the lines going at engine, just below grilles?? so those grilled direct ammo on them just to make fuel leak, makin it easy for air attackers to disaple tiger which were in other means almost impossible, before achilles, long barreled (british) sherman...?*******

    When you see photos of Tigers and Panthers literally ‘blown to bits’ they have usually been subjected to one of the following:

    (a) Heavy aerial bombardment/direct hit with large bomb
    (b) Heavy artillery bombardment/direct hit with very large shell
    (c) Heavy naval bombardment
    (d) Placement of large explosive charges inside the vehicle, by the crew, to avoid capture of abandoned vehicle.

    ******yes. Or placement of large explosive amounts because they cant kill the crew with any other means, like was with one KV in Finland back in war. it wasnt be able to destroyed with molotov cocktails, engine shut down, crew was inside, alive. they had to put much TNT somewhere over/under that tank to blow it in bits, cos crew didnt surrender, and they were threat to Finns, as guns were working. so, it was blow to pieces, and there was made propaganda picture where ground forces were walkin with panzerfausts on their shoulder, as proving how effective those Fausts were..******

    My Quote 9:
    In addition to the possibility of punctured fuel tanks from entry of shell splinters or bullets, the hazard from fuel vapour alone was such that sometimes in the early months of these tanks' deployment (and this happened more to Panthers), a spontaneous fire could start.

    Your Answer 9:
    “so, only these tanks had problems of this kind?? other tanks didnt burn because of those reasons?. have you ever seen car, a normal car, which been burnt up just as its been parked its engine shut off? you dont even need power or heat to make that happen. shortcuts did happen, no need to get fuel in it. everything happened adn will happen. Drop your bias from this issue.”

    My Response 9:
    No, this has been known to happen with some other tanks. There is no bias. However, the subject of the thread has discussed German tanks generally and the Tiger in particular, so I am focussing on them. [Sure, some other tanks had similar problems but other factors were not always the same.]
    Having said that, there were peculiarities associated with the German ‘heavies’ (Tiger, Panther, King Tiger etc) that do rate special mention (we’ve already discussed the design and size of the engine grilles, their positioning on the vehicle etc). There was also, particularly with the Panther, early teething troubles that in a number of cases caused spontaneous fires (but less often with the Tiger).

    ****Ever thought it would been marketing of those very same tanks after the war what was used by allies have you readed about the abrams which caught in fire in Irag? i bet is didnt go public much, just because of marketing those, its big money there is in them. of course there was problems on tanks, every tank had problems and always are having. you know statictics about Kursk bulge battle? only minority of german tanks were lost because of the Russian fire, but because of the mechanical problems, or mines, no time to fix track as russians were advancing. how many of the russian tanks drove in their own mines, many *****

    There was more in your post, but I think I have probably answered enough. I hope this has helped to clear up the main misunderstandings.

    ****yes, i now understood your points and what you want, even if it is not realistic.****


    I was trying to avoid going to this much detail in the first place, but I took shortcuts and it backfired on me! So, I guess I deserve the fatigue I'm beginning to feel now.


    Best regards,
    Panther3485

    ****I again was harsh, as usual, my fault, but, this way, i get more action ) i do not have anything against you, but, i cannot agree on all. i think we should discuss in MSN about these issues******
    Share this post

  4. #104
    Hello once more, Stafroty


    Thank you for your detailed response.

    Unfortunately, my optimism regarding a better understanding between us has proven to be unfounded. Far too many of my statements are still being misunderstood.



    You appear to be genuinely trying to get through to me and I have most certainly been trying my very, very hardest to get through to you, but it just isn't working.

    If your responses are a true indication of the level of understanding between us, the situation appears to be just about hopeless.
    The feedback I got from your last post clearly shows that, not only have most of the previous misunderstandings gone unresolved, there are now even more fresh misunderstandings.

    I can only blame myself, because my feeble and miserable efforts to communicate have obviously been totally inadequate. Like most of us, I have had a few awkward moments on occasion. But never before have I failed so badly, when trying to communicate with another person on this forum.

    Under normal circumstances, I would respond again, in detail, to each of the previous points that has been misunderstood (which in this case, was most of them) and then I would try to address the fresh point also. However, I am afraid that this would continue to mushroom outwards, as it has already, into an even greater disaster.

    To spare us both any further pain and fatigue that would most likely result from more of my feeble and useless efforts, I have decided to quit. I just can't inflict any more of this on you, or on the other people reading this thread, who I am now feeling very sorry for.

    In fact, I would like to take this opportunity to humbly apologize not only to you, but to all the other poor readers of this thread, who have had to put up with my woefully inadequate posts and abysmally poor communication skills.

    All of this failure is, without doubt, entirely my fault and I should never have tried to help you. I deeply regret having done so.


    Go in peace, Stafroty.
    Live a happy life, and I beg you, please try to forget my pathetic, unworthy utterances.

    I promise not to bother you again.


    Best regards,
    panther3485
    Share this post

  5. #105
    het panther about the hosting or attaching pics.

    Here is a short tutorial.

    Make an account at

    http://www.photobucket.com/

    or

    http://imageshack.us/

    I use photobucket, its dam easy to work with.
    Now login to for example photobucket.
    Hit create an album (create sub album)

    Then hit hit search files ( brew directory for pics) when you have multiple pics ,just hit submit multi . wait a few seconds ,pick the pics you wanto upload. and click submit.

    Now when they are uploaded you see (scroll down) the pics.
    Click the URL and hit copy (rightmouse button)

    Now when you wanna show pics here, just hit reply or new topic.
    When you look at the box you see a small thumbnail of a image, click that and a poppup opens, hit paste (right mouse button) and click ok. voila your pic is added. Now the pic is shown were the cursor is
    . have fun with it.

    Ow i have lots of info bout german tanks lesser bout US and Russian and the rest, japanese "tanks" none to zero, they are lesser in interest for me.

    Edit: dam typo's hahaha


    regards
    Share this post

  6. #106
    Thanks, CD_kp84yb

    Will check this out tomorrow (bed time again!)


    Goodnight and best regards,
    panther3485
    Share this post

  7. #107
    Originally posted by panther3485:
    Hello once more, Stafroty


    Thank you for your detailed response.

    Unfortunately, my optimism regarding a better understanding between us has proven to be unfounded. Far too many of my statements are still being misunderstood.



    You appear to be genuinely trying to get through to me and I have most certainly been trying my very, very hardest to get through to you, but it just isn't working.

    If your responses are a true indication of the level of understanding between us, the situation appears to be just about hopeless.
    The feedback I got from your last post clearly shows that, not only have most of the previous misunderstandings gone unresolved, there are now even more fresh misunderstandings.

    I can only blame myself, because my feeble and miserable efforts to communicate have obviously been totally inadequate. Like most of us, I have had a few awkward moments on occasion. But never before have I failed so badly, when trying to communicate with another person on this forum.

    Under normal circumstances, I would respond again, in detail, to each of the previous points that has been misunderstood (which in this case, was most of them) and then I would try to address the fresh point also. However, I am afraid that this would continue to mushroom outwards, as it has already, into an even greater disaster.

    To spare us both any further pain and fatigue that would most likely result from more of my feeble and useless efforts, I have decided to quit. I just can't inflict any more of this on you, or on the other people reading this thread, who I am now feeling very sorry for.

    In fact, I would like to take this opportunity to humbly apologize not only to you, but to all the other poor readers of this thread, who have had to put up with my woefully inadequate posts and abysmally poor communication skills.

    All of this failure is, without doubt, entirely my fault and I should never have tried to help you. I deeply regret having done so.


    Go in peace, Stafroty.
    Live a happy life, and I beg you, please try to forget my pathetic, unworthy utterances.

    I promise not to bother you again.


    Best regards,
    panther3485

    gotta say, i understand your points panther, i just mean, that in many of those, you need luck, to have effect, which, game doesnt model
    and if it would model, ehy wouldnt it model engine problems for aircrafts as well. we had it like that and it wasnt fun to fly some coop missions, as everyone wanted brand new engine. there is some complaints still about the paintshop of the cockpits.. its worn.

    and, even if you play it like you are sorry etc, doesnt chance the thing to other side, you know?
    if things didnt go like you would have expected, why not call it anymore discussion but fight etc? you sure are man who can stand harsh talking, or are you something else?
    this harsh way dont have to hurt your feelings if you dont allow it to, you dont have to take it on to your blame, that way beggin understandment. I know your points and if i proved them wrong (there isnt much holes between engine and radiator spaces, all visible now in those earlier pictures, are covered with somekind of devises which i dont want to start name, as you yourself would know them already.
    Share this post

  8. #108
    Has the possibility of internal flaking of the armor been discussed yet?

    While this would not disable the tank it could definitely kill or maim a crew member or two
    Share this post

  9. #109
    British and American reserch groups investigating the battlefields of nomandy on german tank losses show out of 121 PIV studied only 9 were hit by airweapons of these only 2 were destroyed by aircraft cannon, the other 6 from aircraft rockets.

    Of the 40 tigers only one was hit by air weapons.

    Panthers, the largest killer was crew abandonment (empty fuel tanks) and self destruction during the retreat 80% of losses in auguest. only 6% of panthers lost were due to air weapons.


    The russians deplying 2.3cm cannons, rkts, bombs hollow charger bomblets rated airpower as accounting for only 2 to 5% of german armour losses in 1943. Read Ian Goodersons Allied Fighter bombers vurses Geraman armour in north west europe, myths and realities. He uses operational reserch teams accounts and studies that were carried out on the normandy battlefield. SHEF operational accounts.

    Similar reports exist of the increadnbly suprising poorness of air power in general destroying tanks in korea. Aircraft there packing the 50cal wonderweapon and the much more powerful 2cm hisapno suza's just like wwII
    Share this post

  10. #110
    Originally posted by jds1978:
    Has the possibility of internal flaking of the armor been discussed yet?

    While this would not disable the tank it could definitely kill or maim a crew member or two
    Spall from the inside of the armor just *won't* happen from 50 caliber ammo. It's impossible.

    Tell me, if mere machine gun ammo could kill all the occupants of a tank, why would heavy armor even EXIST? The fact is that Tiger tanks could be reasonably expected to take 60mm rounds to the front armor and survive to return fire. Machine gun rounds would just bounce off.

    Spall is a real problem from larger rounds, though. I don't know anything about spall liners in WWII tanks, but they might have *something* there.
    Share this post