Senior Member
+1 to SeafireLIV's post.
If this franchise became a video game I would bolt.
Be sure.
It's like Bearcat's tag line: "IMMERSION BABY!!"
I have never played an immersive video game. Ever. But this piece of software continues to suspend my disbelief an plops me right in the cockpit, online or off. Every time.
Member
ElAurens
How would training hurt immersion?
To quote a Capitaine Haddock (over at simhq),
In many trainers, you can feel how the instructor is flying the plane (through the linked controls), hence my idea of the ghosted out controls. I don't see another way to do this. Although, now that I think about it, force feedback while the instructor was flying the trainer would be awesome. Especially if the instructor let you fly, and then would try to take over (This would be especially fun if it let you fight the instructor/FFB).In BoB having a proper training campaing on the Tiger Moth could also make the game far more realistic.
I realize that some of my ideas may be too gimicky, but the thrust of my original post was not, "Hey, here is what Oleg should implement." It was (and continues to be) that Oleg should do something that will make the game teach new players how to have fun (i.e. fly) in this game. This doesn't have to make the game less of a sim, it can in fact make it a better one. Or do you think that real pilots had no training?
Senior Member
I initially bought Il2 thinking it would be a cool video game. See, I had just gotten tired of CFS2 after a few months of playing and wanted to see what else was out there. CFS2 was a fun little game with a story. Cool, right? A video-sim-game unlike the regular shootem-up stuff I was used to. Fun, but lacking something.
So, I plopped in Il2 thinking I was a decent pilot by now with the CFS experience and promptly crashed on my first 9 attempts to get airborne. Huh? I'd never had any problems learning a game before and this one was kicking my butt! I was intrigued and hooked right then. This, to me, was how to do a video game right!! Make you work HARD to fly, fight, and land. That's the reward, and it's huge. I consider every aspect of learning and succeeding the Il2 way far more satisfying than any other game I've ever played in my entire life.
After how many years has it been now?, Il2 is still on my computer. If this were a game trying to be like all other games, I'd of dumped it after couple of months (or sooner) like all the other games I've bought. Can it be better? Of course. Just don't make it like the rest.
Senior Member
You know. This might sound crazy and a bit far fetched. I am not sure how I need to explain this so read broadly to try to grasp what I am trying to say. If the sim would go a step or 10 further and if you get shot down and have to bail out, the game goes with you and then you are having to make your way back to your base or to friendly territory, having to be very stealthy on your escape.
That is about as simple as I can put it. But something like this would encompass the flight sim as a simulator and a FPS as you try to navigate your way back to base, or at least friendly territory. Could give the best of both worlds. It would be cool if it could be online as well. Suppose a squadm8 gets shot up to the point of having to bail, then you two could hook up on the ground and try to get back to safety together.
I know it is propbably a bad idea and wouldn't make for a good game, but just a thought I have had for quite a while just as a "what if".
Member
What would be helpful is a trainer with a co-pilot/instructor spot, and a Pilot and Co-Pilot spot in Bombers. The above pilots stations could be used to help train people online. the co-pilots seat could be used by the instructor to show the student in the pilots seat how to do any number of moves. And then the student can try what was just shown to him.
I'm talking a AT-6 and Navy version called the SNJ with a tailhook. And similar planes for Germany and Japan. In fact Japan had a version of the AT-6 they got before the war.
The instructor could be in the plane and tell the student what he is doing right or wrong.
That was online above.
For offline, they could have the same thing, with the instructor AI telling the student what he is doing wrong, ie...To fast on final Approach, to high...etc.
I enjoy working with a Squadron online and learning new things with real people. Just the other day VF-17_Twisted showed me a killer move in a Corsair I could never learn off-line in a AI envirement.
Just my thoughts,
VF-17_DWolf
Senior Member
Q-Bert: I hear what you're saying but i have to disagree...
I'm a history enthusiast first and a simmer second. The only "games" that have gotten any ammount of love from me are Hearts of Iron 1&2, the Combat Mission series, and now the IL2 series. Why is that? Because when i load up any of these games i know i'm getting the real deal...that is, that i'm going back to the past to re-create the WW2 era. Whether i'm managing the socio-economic structure of the 3rd Reich in HOI, commanding a Red Army tank battalion in CM 2, or dive bombing the Japanese TF off Midway Is. in PF, i know that the developers of these games have paid enough attention to historic detail to make it as real as possible w/o actual lead flying.
About a month ago, a good dozen of my friends had an XBox party. They hooked up 4 TV's and as many consoles and had it out with a Halo 2 "Death Match-athon"....i was bored stupid. That's when i realized that i was a "Simmer" not a "Gamer"
Funnily enough, a lot of the time i fly around just to sight-see and put different AC through their paces. What is the plane capable of? How does that compare w/ planes "X, Y, & Z?"
I share your concern about us being stuck in a niche market. The consoles are taking over and i fear the day when people like 1c cave into corporate and or market driven demands to dumb their products down in order to appeal to a larger auidience.
I think simmers are ahead of the curve in relation to gamers in the smarts department.
They know that anything good is worth putting a little effort into. In order to get good at a sim and enjoy it to it's full potential you have to do some research and be open to instruction.
You're dead on about the lack of training content out of the box. It would be cool to have some sort of basic training followed by advanced fighter tactics school. I'm not sure i agree with your methodology though.
I hope this didn't come across as patronizing or condescending...i like the way you're thinking and share some of your concerns.
Great Topic
Member
I agree that the game needs more of a human touch. I love the technical aspects and the complex flight models, but the single player experience (which is primarily what I look for in games) is decidedly lacking in atmosphere.
I would love to see more polish and extras thrown in to increase a sense of immersion, risk, and reward.
Apart from the AI problems which have plagued the game since it's inception (I played a mission in my IJN campaign last night and the Kate torpedo bombers I was escorting STILL managed to all ditch into the sea rather than launch their torps), the game just feels dry. The mission briefings and AARs are flat and uninspired and there's no sense of continuity within the campaign.
There are a bunch of little things that other games have gotten right that would add so much to the game if they were implemented. LucasArts Their Finest Hour and even X-Wing had a great pilot roster system　and accompanying AI routine that tracked every pilot's progress in your squadron and you could actually see the results as your wingmen went from rookies to veterans and became more profficient as time went on. They also took the time to add easily accessable squadron logs with individual pilot pictures (and in later X-Wing series games, voices). It felt like you were more a part of a real, living squadron and you felt the loss if an ace went down during a mission.
More immerisive briefings like those from B-17 II or even EAW would add a lot.
CFS3's flight model sucked, but the dynamic campaign was pretty well done. I liked the fact that you could affect the war's outcome, if even in a little way. Rowan's Flying Corps did this well too. The maps actually reflected what you'd done on past missions so if you took out a bridge and some AA in a certain area, they'd still be gone in later missions. (You could even go and take out repair crews that showed up later in certain instances in Flying Corps).
Some more tangible rewards for doing well would be nice. Little things such as kill paintings on your aircraft skin or the ability to put in a custom skin or rename the squadron, etc.
Once you become a squadron leader, the ability to attract certain types of recruits based upon your rep would be cool. Again, done in Flying Corps.
I don't think the OP was suggesting dumbing down the actual in-game flight model, just adding some bells and whistles to improve the overall experience.
I'm all for that. (And for the love of God, Oleg, please, please, PLEASE hire some professional voice actors to replace the UK/Commonwealth pilots. They're too painful to listen to.)
Member
I have to agree with what Chuck_older and Bearcat said. They are 100% on with that. I have a few things to add too.
I personly am not a super pilot in IL-2. I do have some, not much, real stick time in aircraft, my brother in law use to be a flight instructor. The thing is I do know how to fly and land. I find simulators that are true simulators fun and challanging if done correctly. I have yet to find one other than IL-2 that has even come close. I have not tryed all that are out there but even the microsoft ones don't really cut it for me. IL-2 even has room for improvement but again is the closest I have found.
Back in the day I was impressed with Aces of the Pacific and even Aces of Europe being they were cuting edge and were some of the first to support rudder controls and HoTS systems. They were still arcady and so were not what I concidered real but had their fun moments.
I got IL-2 and had to say WOW! This is great. My borther in law has tryed many of the flight sims I have had over the years and has hated every one of them. He recently sat down in frount of IL-2 at my dads and said that it was very realistic and he would play it if he had the time, which unfortunetly he does not.
Going to a even simi arcade like style would totaly turn me off to any flight sim. I dont want to be known as "Robert Fox Super Sim fighter pilot" I want to be known as just another guy that is enjoying the flight sim that is trying to reach for reality profection.
Yes that will turn alot of people off right there because they dont want to spend the time learning how to really and I mean (Really) fly an aircraft. But for thoes of us that do want that we are very thankful that out of all the video game designers out there one is doing just that. Out of all the games I have played only 2 and arguably 3 have come close. There are literly 100s of flight sims that have come out sence I started in 88 and few have held my intrest.
I have tryed thoes that you have a script, ones that you make a pilot, ones that you have to fly mission 1 successfuly to get to mission 2 etc. IL-2 does not restrict me that way. I can try more in this sim that reaches for what really happened than any I have ever tryed and I like that.
I dont like learning to fly or even having to learn to fly every sim... or every plane for that matter. I like the challange of geting into it and learning that what the last flight sim did does not work 100% in this one. I like the challange of having not only diffrent shaped planes but actully ones that fly diffrent because in reality they were diffrent and did act diffrent than the other modle.
Geting down to it Im so happy that one person is out there not doing what every other designer does that I cant thank Olga more for IL-2. Yes he may make more money if he catters to all the "I want a game" flight simmers out there. But then for thoes of us that dont want that we would never have the oppertunity of enjoying what really, or at least almost really happened out there in WWII.
No offence but I say thanks for your suggestion but I will be much happier if Olga goes even further the other direction than what you suggest. I want something more realistic and less "Learn to fly". Thoes that need to learn to fly can take up another sim and learn the basics then move on to the next IL-2 like game. Someday I hope for 100% reality. I cant wait for the day computers and programing reach point.
Senior Member
Sukebeboy's got a nice idea.
I do think little touches could be added to the campaigns. I love the campaign, but little things like that would be an excellent addition.
I've just started a career with the Seafire, we're taking on Iwo Jima and i've decided i want to model the plane like it would be going through the missions, and taking the hits.
If i took shots in a mission from flak, i'd paint some repaired patches on my skin, with each kill, i'd add a kill mark to the skin.
It'll add that much more immerssion.
Senior Member
As I see it, there are two distinct camps here. Fanbois and realists.
The fanboi's narrow minded view boils down to, "if it ain't in the package, it ain't needed". So, anything resembling training, a manual, missions geared to skill level are belittled as too arcade.
Falcon 4 was mentioned by this camp. The difference is IL2 has a manual of maybe five pages while F4's is more like five hundred.
The realists see that although this is an excellent sim, it is only one mans vision. And that vision includes the use of a crystal ball to figure out the controls, map them, and learn to use them. There is IMO, nothing arcade about training and complete and useful instructions.
The game would not suffer by having a tutorial, like most every other "sim" produced in the last number of years. If you are honest with yourself you will see that this series is a good core wrapped in a poor package.
At a time when sales of flight sims are in decline, I don't think it would be asking too much to make this and future sims more accessible to people who may be open to trying them.
To think otherwise is elitist and a major contributor to the demise of the genre.
