Banned
Qbert, great thinking. Thanks...
Flyable historic basic trainers should be placed on the opening game menu, with options for in-air start or airfield start.What I propose instead of an arcade mode is to set up default options that are almost full switch (cockpit on, icons on, limited ammo/fuel etc). But give the player a place to go right away that lets them "get into" the game. This is where my training suggestion comes in, or your story suggestion could come in (if I may borrow that idea).
Training campaign can be made, with increasing levels of tasks, and near the end, a possibility of the player's training field being attacked from the air.
I disagree about making a personal Pilot with a logg. I have never done this in any flight sim, and its a false or easy thing to call "development." Players don't need an alter personality, they do need immersive training missions or training "campaigns" -- fully populated with other (friendly) aircraft also on their own operations near the training field. All this on a properly crafted game menu which has never been done in a flight sim.
Junior Member
Just to add also, there are two ways to play on line. Ubi and hyperlobby. Only ubi is supported in the game initally. While there will ALWAYS be Ubi only people most seem to fly on hyperlobby.
Now another critical part. 98% of the servers are FB+AEP+PF NOT just Pacific fighters. Now go and try finding FB and AEP in the stores. While SOME may carry it most don't, at least both games, which you need to fully enjoy the total experience.
I see it time and time again on Hyperlobby, and that is " Are there any PF only servers? " If you're intention is to include this part of the game as an add-on then you should also offer a total package deal with an explanation on the packaging somewhere, and the Pacific Fighters only as another option.
Senior Member
Its a well considered post. Your examples, or some variation, may have potential to draw more members, but the biggest draw has been stated and that is its a simulation. Reality is the ideal and the closer it gets, the greater the motivation. I've always felt folks who want to enjoy serious combat flight simming are different in disposition. Not saying better or worse, but patient, wanting a hobby/pass-time to be 'real' pilots.
People are always joining this community who are new, not only to FB/PF but serious flight simming. I think its probably true the majority who play this sim have played CFS, Janes, Rowans etc., but there are genuine newbies.
There is a fairly steep learning curve but Oleg and Co. know the market and its future potential well enough to realize the likely profits are there, as they continue with BoB.
Senior Member
Originally posted by MrQBerrt:
To summarize both this game and this article, I'll say that IL-2 is a fantastic flight sim, but an appalling video game. There are a number of ways to improve this, I've given an example, but only one of many. I hope others will read this thread and share their ideas, especially the ones that involve teaching new players how to play the game and reward them for doing so. I believe that these ideas, if implemented, would grow our community and make Oleg more money.
Very eloquent, but this also leads to a few problems...
A long time ago, games where made because programmers had a particular interest in the genre and wanted to bring it to an interactive environment. The programmer wanted to see his particular idea come to `life`. If he made money from it, great, but that was NOT the sole goal.
Examples of such games created recently (ish)...
Need 4 Speed Hot pursuit (PC).
Shogun Total War.
Morrowind.
Black and white.
Combat mission 1 2 & 3
There are more, but this will do.
Excellent games, but for some, a little slow to immediately get into. So, with the exception of Combat Mission, the programmers decided to make them more `video gamey`, more `fun`...
So now we have Rome Total War.
Black and White 2
Need 4 Speed 3.
and Oblivion soon... There`s more sequels on the list.
The result, gamey games with very little depth compared to the original. `Fun` for the 1st 30 seconds then forgotten after a week. Now RTW was saved by the expansion `barbarian Invasion` and patches but only due to indignant complaints about its lack of depth.
Black and white was a dismal dissappointment, losing all the good stuff (except for graphics) in this incarnation compared to BW1.
And don`t even mention NFS which was awful and completely ignored the forum complainers.
I haven`t played Oblivion yet, and while I look forward to it, I hear worrying reports... There will be a special `jump` mode to skip long distances without any need for normal travel modes (as with the not so good fable). Players may be charged for official plugins like extra armour, etc. hmmm...
The only thing to survive so far is the flight sim and Combat Mission 1,2 and 3..
I agree that IL2 could use a little more of the `Human` touch, but I don`t agree with making it `video gamey` to try and drag in EVERYONE.
It`s a flight sim and if a programmer succeeds in attracting EVERYONE to it within the 1st 30 seconds then i guarantee it would no longer be a flight sim. It would be Crimson Skies. Not every one wants to learn how to take off and land, even with ghost images and controls - they just want to be in the air already. Not EVERYONE wants to feel the adrenalin rush of getting out of a spin at 3000metres with the correct use of flaps, joystick and rudder.
But that`s why Oleg provided an EASY FLIGHT MODE!
Oleg can make it more video gamey, but if he wants to keep it as a Flight Sim, it is impossible to make more video gamey and `fun` for EVERYONE.
A true flight sim, by its own definition cannot be accesible to everyone.
Of course, with the way things are going with games/simulaters these days and how no one cares about authenticity (as long as their fave plane blows all out the sky) it wouldn`t surprise me if Oleg gave in to pressure and produced a BOB Crimson Skies - Shattering my support forever.
Yes, I`m one of those people who thinks that money is important, but NOT as important as the idea... Guess I`m just naive that way.
I`ve seen a lot of evidence that people don`t want a simulater, but just want to pretend they`re flying a simulater. Companies like EA knows this... It does indeed appear that only a core group of people REALLY want to fly a sim
Sorry for my waffle.
Member
When I originally started this post, I just wanted to mention how the Platinum pack is a good idea as it will make the game more accessable to new users. Then I got on a bit of a rampage and completely forgot to mention it. Thanks for reminding me Twisted.
SeaFire makes a good point that Oleg has never sold out. He doesn't compromise (at least too much) on the fact that he is making the kind of flight sim that he wants. That we all love his game so much is a good testiment to what a great sim he has made.
Reading many of your replies makes me regret using the word "game" in contrast to the word "sim." I see that the word "game" makes the community think of a low quality sim, or at least a non-realistic sim. This is not what I intended.
Banned
I'm glad it sucks as a video game
Some of what you suggest, QBert, also imples that this game is for online players only
Leave me out of it, 100%. When this becomes an online game/sim only, I am gone like a cool breeze
WWII aviation has been my passion since I was 4 (30 years ago). Sims are not things that cater to the people that don't care to know the first thing about the subject they simulate
There is literally 60 years' worth of literaure published regarding Aerial combat in WWII
The heart and soul of a sim, like it or lump it, is, even if they are called 'rivet-counters' the guys and gals who really, really know their stuff about real-world WWII aviation. I know a little. They breathe life into it by demanding more realism. The community always has and always will be, until it dies, the easiest and most correct place to go for things like training scenarios-
Is it easier for Oleg Maddox to be All-Knowing about All Things WWII related, or is it easier for a large group to have experts who know intricate detail about specific things?
The problem is that the Il2 community isn't an integrated one- new players either stumble on it or have to be given directions. I can make (actually I have) missions in which you learn to fly at night in a manner very close to how a US Army Cadet did in 1943. My mission is much more intricate than one that would come with the sim and more correct as well. I sweat out if trees are too close to each other in my missions
An integral Truth to the flight simmer is that Playing the sim is it's Own Reward. In-game rewardsSome folks fly flight sims that have no combatBut it is more fun to blow stuff up, I'll grant you. What good are six .50 machine guns if you can't shoot something down
But as far as creating a character-pilot goes, and having a reward system in place like some online games...a sim suspends your disbeleif that you're not really a pilot. making a pilot-character shatters it. It's close to playing pretend already, and making up a pilot-character for me, and others I think, is too close to playing pretend
Member
Senior Member
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Very eloquent, but this also leads to a few problems...
A long time ago, games where made because programmers had a particular interest in the genre and wanted to bring it to an interactive environment. The programmer wanted to see his particular idea come to `life`. If he made money from it, great, but that was NOT the sole goal.
Examples of such games created recently (ish)...
Need 4 Speed Hot pursuit (PC).
Shogun Total War.
Morrowind.
Black and white.
Combat mission 1 2 & 3
There are more, but this will do.
Excellent games, but for some, a little slow to immediately get into. So, with the exception of Combat Mission, the programmers decided to make them more `video gamey`, more `fun`...
So now we have Rome Total War.
Black and White 2
Need 4 Speed 3.
and Oblivion soon... There`s more sequels on the list.
The result, gamey games with very little depth compared to the original. `Fun` for the 1st 30 seconds then forgotten after a week. Now RTW was saved by the expansion `barbarian Invasion` and patches but only due to indignant complaints about its lack of depth.
Black and white was a dismal dissappointment, losing all the good stuff (except for graphics) in this incarnation compared to BW1.
And don`t even mention NFS which was awful and completely ignored the forum complainers.
I haven`t played Oblivion yet, and while I look forward to it, I hear worrying reports... There will be a special `jump` mode to skip long distances without any need for normal travel modes (as with the not so good fable). Players may be charged for official plugins like extra armour, etc. hmmm...
The only thing to survive so far is the flight sim and Combat Mission 1,2 and 3..
I agree that IL2 could use a little more of the `Human` touch, but I don`t agree with making it `video gamey` to try and drag in EVERYONE.
It`s a flight sim and if a programmer succeeds in attracting EVERYONE to it within the 1st 30 seconds then i guarantee it would no longer be a flight sim. It would be Crimson Skies. Not every one wants to learn how to take off and land, even with ghost images and controls - they just want to be in the air already. Not EVERYONE wants to feel the adrenalin rush of getting out of a spin at 3000metres with the correct use of flaps, joystick and rudder.
But that`s why Oleg provided an EASY FLIGHT MODE!
Oleg can make it more video gamey, but if he wants to keep it as a Flight Sim, it is impossible to make more video gamey and `fun` for EVERYONE.
A true flight sim, by its own definition cannot be accesible to everyone.
Of course, with the way things are going with games/simulaters these days and how no one cares about authenticity (as long as their fave plane blows all out the sky) it wouldn`t surprise me if Oleg gave in to pressure and produced a BOB Crimson Skies - Shattering my support forever.
Yes, I`m one of those people who thinks that money is important, but NOT as important as the idea... Guess I`m just naive that way.
I`ve seen a lot of evidence that people don`t want a simulater, but just want to pretend they`re flying a simulater. Companies like EA knows this... It does indeed appear that only a core group of people REALLY want to fly a sim
Sorry for my waffle.
What he said.....
Edit by Tully: fixed quote tags to make it easier to read
Member
I think I might be risking hijacking my own thread here but do you feel that IL-2 caters to offline gamers very well? I have to disagree on that one, I think it caters to online play much more so than it does to offline play. I almost listed that as one of the points in my little tirade, but I thought it had been covered so much already that I'd just let it lie.Some of what you suggest, QBert, also imples that this game is for online players only
I think that IL-2 would be much more accesible and be a much better game/sim if the offline campaigns were done better, or shipped with some of the excelent user made campaigns/missions.
As another related point, it seems to me like the only way to really have fun with the game and learn how to play the game is by getting online. And I'm not talking about flying online. The config file editing is a great example of this, how would I know how to make the game look good if I wasn't an internet user?
Senior Member
I've got to agree, part of what makes a sim so much fun, is knowing that this is as close as you'll ever get to the real deal.
Also, it rewards you for your time and effort.
I came into this game, knowing a bit about WWII, mostly that the US fought Germany and Japan, and i figured that we owned everyone for the most part.
All of the wars were fought, then America jumped in and saved the day. that was about 4(?) years ago. (is that how long this game's been out?)
Then i found Il-2, and having read a preview for it in Il-2 i installed the Demo. The game destroyed what i thought i knew about flying from CFS2. The first time i tried taking off in a P-39, i left little more than a crater tribute in the russian country side, it didn't help that it was windy, and raining, and visibility was limited to about as far as i could throw a rock.
But slowly, i figured you had to nurse the plane into the air. I gave the Il-2 a try simply because it was much easier to fly, and had bombs, a handful of canons and machine guns, and a gunner to watch my *** for me.
As these years have progressed, i've learned a lot more about this game (take that people who say games can't teach) and definitly bettered myself as a sim pilot. Thanks to the info learned from the game, books i became interested in, and just the general out pouring of information from the many brilliant members of the community has given a young mind a lot to soak up.
So in short, as the years have passed i've "mastered" (to the best of my skill, i'm sure i'd still get served online) the planes for the most part. I'm not a killing machine in all of them, but i just took down 4 Shinden's in a Seafire in my last, so i'm not the worst.
But it's amazing to think back to not being able to nurse a plane into the sky, and now being able to blow others out of it, survive without a scratch, and then put your plane down onto a moving, rocking hunk of metal in the middle of an ocean.
So as a game, yes it sucks, as a sim. Well it's been said time and again, it doesn't get better than this.
