1. #31
    Originally posted by Bo_Nidle:
    Avro's example may be fiction but it raises a valid point: Are there no conceivable circumstances that could justify the use of torture?

    I do not condone torture and agree it is largely self defeating. But neither am I, or indeed, is anyone else here, privvy to what is really going on in the war against terrorism and how various successful operations have been generated by intelligence gathered by such methods.

    It is a moral dilemma that does not bother the enemy in the slightest. They view our compassion as weakness and use our laws and morals against us.

    And we must allow them to do so or we become as bad they are. Or do we?

    Avro uses an example similar to one I have used in this argument with other people: A terrorist cell gains possession of a nuclear device and plants it in a American city. They set in to go off within 48hrs. They confirm this in a video but obviously do not say which city. One of the cell is caught. Do you:

    a/ Use torture in an attempt to get him to reveal the location of the device within a time frame to allow its safe deactivation?

    or

    b/ Allow him full human rights and judicial process and thus allow millions to die but maintaining your sense of morality?

    It is actually derived from the storyline of a film starring Samuel L Jackson called "Unthinkable". It deals with this very question.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...Wzg8&feature=related

    I do not know the answer, but then that's the dilemma is it not?
    In the movie all ends in an epic fail: torture poved inefective (the last nuke explodes) even after killing the suspect's innocent wife before him and her child, and democracy in a western country fails too, at protecting the human body by the means of laws (against violence): it allowed the suspect to be reduced to a "subhuman".

    I see the nuke exploding in the end as the chaos that will come in a world where violence, be it as State violence or as terrorism, becomes the only way. Civilisation is destroyed by its (the violence's) chaotic nature.

    The young woman and the terrorist's son in the end. The young woman will take care of the child by adopting it symbolically, as to show that in the end there is no difference in nature between us and them, terrorist enemies, we have violence, and we also have love: the whole movie seems to show that the difference is in degree, not in nature. Sad that the woman and the child (symbol for possible reconciliation and love) seem to die in the final explosion too. Very dark movie.

    But that's only my interpretation
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  2. #32
    Wot. No Shemale Vids folder?

    Originally posted by bun-bun195333:
    but I'm thinking about switching to this one...


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  3. #33
    stalkervision's Avatar Banned
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    RegRag1977
    "Since after all, what are those Rights we cherish and want to defend, if they can be suspended as easily as they have been? If our fundamental Rights are so easy to suspend, then what is the real nature of our so called Free Countries?"
    Good question.
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  4. #34
    Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
    Wot. No Shemale Vids folder?

    It's a desktop. You have to add whatever folders you like later.

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  5. #35
    Originally posted by stalkervision:
    RegRag1977<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"Since after all, what are those Rights we cherish and want to defend, if they can be suspended as easily as they have been? If our fundamental Rights are so easy to suspend, then what is the real nature of our so called Free Countries?"
    Good question. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Sorry, Daniel Pearl and Nick Berg are not available for comment.
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  6. #36
    And the situation room reacts to Bin Laden's death...


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  7. #37
    Airmail109's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally posted by bun-bun195333:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
    RegRag1977<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"Since after all, what are those Rights we cherish and want to defend, if they can be suspended as easily as they have been? If our fundamental Rights are so easy to suspend, then what is the real nature of our so called Free Countries?"
    Good question. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Sorry, Daniel Pearl and Nick Berg are not available for comment. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Nick Berg traveled to Iraq knowing full well what the risks were. Your point is?
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  8. #38
    Originally posted by Aimail101:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bun-bun195333:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
    RegRag1977<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"Since after all, what are those Rights we cherish and want to defend, if they can be suspended as easily as they have been? If our fundamental Rights are so easy to suspend, then what is the real nature of our so called Free Countries?"
    Good question. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Sorry, Daniel Pearl and Nick Berg are not available for comment. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Nick Berg traveled to Iraq knowing full well what the risks were. Your point is? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    So it's ok for KSM to slice Nick Berg's head off, make a movie of it and dump his body like garbage but you're seriously concerned that the US put a little water into KSM's sinus cavities? Just asking...
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  9. #39
    Airmail109's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally posted by bun-bun195333:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bun-bun195333:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
    RegRag1977<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"Since after all, what are those Rights we cherish and want to defend, if they can be suspended as easily as they have been? If our fundamental Rights are so easy to suspend, then what is the real nature of our so called Free Countries?"
    Good question. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Sorry, Daniel Pearl and Nick Berg are not available for comment. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Nick Berg traveled to Iraq knowing full well what the risks were. Your point is? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    So it's ok for KSM to slice Nick Berg's head off, make a movie of it and dump his body like garbage but you're seriously concerned that the US put a little water into KSM's sinus cavities? Just asking... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    My problem with it is that you lead by setting an example. Don't want to have your soldiers nuts strapped to a car battery? Well don't torture people. We lecture China about human rights abuses and yet Guantanamo bay exists. So no, I don't believe torture should be legal. All people should be allowed to a free and fair trial whereby they are innocent until proven guilty.
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  10. #40
    Originally posted by Aimail101:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bun-bun195333:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bun-bun195333:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
    RegRag1977<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"Since after all, what are those Rights we cherish and want to defend, if they can be suspended as easily as they have been? If our fundamental Rights are so easy to suspend, then what is the real nature of our so called Free Countries?"
    Good question. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Sorry, Daniel Pearl and Nick Berg are not available for comment. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Nick Berg traveled to Iraq knowing full well what the risks were. Your point is? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    So it's ok for KSM to slice Nick Berg's head off, make a movie of it and dump his body like garbage but you're seriously concerned that the US put a little water into KSM's sinus cavities? Just asking... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    My problem with it is that you lead by setting an example. Don't want to have your soldiers nuts strapped to a car battery? Well don't torture people. We lecture China about human rights abuses and yet Guantanamo bay exists. So no, I don't believe torture should be legal. All people should be allowed to a free and fair trial whereby they are innocent until proven guilty. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    So you're totally cool with the Nick Berg movie? It's still out on the internet if you want to see it again.
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