1. #1
    The 'What if there had'nt been any Jets' thread has made me wonder about the ultimate piston engines. Did the Germans ever have anything to match the Napier Sabre ? If so how close were they to service introdcution. The reason I ask is that the performance figures for the Fw Fighter project with the BMW 802 engine are pretty close to that of late war Allied types like the Tempest V and the F4U4. I think jet engines killed off the development of the German piston engine - yet in Britain its development was continued for some years.
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  2. #2
    The 'What if there had'nt been any Jets' thread has made me wonder about the ultimate piston engines. Did the Germans ever have anything to match the Napier Sabre ? If so how close were they to service introdcution. The reason I ask is that the performance figures for the Fw Fighter project with the BMW 802 engine are pretty close to that of late war Allied types like the Tempest V and the F4U4. I think jet engines killed off the development of the German piston engine - yet in Britain its development was continued for some years.
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  3. #3
    Viper2005_'s Avatar Senior Member
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    Rolls-Royce Crecy ftw.
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  4. #4
    Jumo213 pwns y0
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  5. #5
    Sitting on the fence, but the likely Allied contenders for the most advanced enngine seem to me to be:


    1. Napier Sabre:
    Sabre IV (2,560 hp)
    Sabre V (2,340 hp)
    Sabre IIC (2,360 hp)

    2. Bristol Centarus:
    Centarus V (2,520 hp)
    Centarus VI (2,580 hp)

    3. Pratt & Whitney R-3350
    R-3350-23 (2,200 hp)
    R-3350-24W (2,500 hp)
    R-3350-32W (3,700 hp)

    4. Rolls-Royce Merlin 130/140 serise

    Merlin 130 (2,080 hp)
    Merlin 140 (2,180 hp)

    5. Rolls Royce Crecy:
    Crecy 10 (2,500 hp)

    6. Rolls Royce Griffon

    Griffon 85 (2,350 hp)
    Griffon 100 (2,420 hp)
    Griffon 57 (2,485 hp)

    7. Pratt & Whitney R-4360

    R-4360-51 (4,100 hp)
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  6. #6
    A listing of WWII aircaft engines... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_engines

    Also... http://www.enginehistory.org/burk.htm


    Pratt & Whitney R-4360... http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Qu...0/engine9.html

    General characteristics
    Type: 28-cylinder supercharged air-cooled four-row radial engine
    Bore: 5.75 in. (146 mm)
    Stroke: 6.00 in. (152 mm)
    Displacement: 4,360 in³ (71.4 L)
    Length: 96.5 in. (2 451 mm)
    Diameter: 55 in (1397 mm)
    Dry weight: 3,870 lb (1,755 kg)
    Components
    Valvetrain: Poppet, two valves per cylinder
    Supercharger: Gear-driven single stage variable speed centrifugal type supercharger
    Fuel system: Stromberg four-barrel pressure-type carburetor
    Fuel type: 108/135 octane gasoline
    Cooling system: Air-cooled
    Performance
    Power output: 4,300 hp (3,210 kW)
    Specific power: 0.99 hp/in³ (45.0 kW/L)
    Compression ratio: 6.7 : 1
    Power-to-weight ratio: 1.11 hp/lb (1.83 kW/kg)


    Napier Sabre... http://www.eagle.ca/~harry/aircraft/tempest/sabre/index.htm

    General characteristics
    Type: 24-cylinder supercharged liquid-cooled H-type four-stroke aircraft piston engine
    Bore: 5.0 in (127 mm)
    Stroke: 4.75 in (121 mm)
    Displacement: 2,238 in³ (36.7 L)
    Length: 82.25 in (2089 mm)
    Width: 40 in (1016 mm)
    Height: 36 in (1168 mm)
    Dry weight: 2,360 lb (1,070 kg)
    Components
    Valvetrain: Sleeve valve, four valves per cylinder
    Supercharger: Gear-driven single-stage two-speed centrifugal type supercharger
    Fuel system: Hobson injection-type carburetor
    Fuel type: 100/130 octane gasoline
    Cooling system: Liquid-cooled
    Performance
    Power output:

    2,850 hp (2,065 kW) at 3,800 rpm and 13 psi (0.9 bar) intake boost
    3,040 hp (2,200 kW) at 4,000 rpm war emergency power
    Specific power: 1.36 hp/in³ (59.9 kW/L)
    Compression ratio: 7:1
    Power-to-weight ratio: 1.29 hp/lb (2.06 kW/kg)


    Daimler Benz DB 610... http://www.aviation-history.com/engines/db605.htm

    Daimler-Benz DB 610 (contains 2x DB 605 each) 24-cylinder liquid-cooled inline engines, 2,950 hp (2,170 kW)

    http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Im..._DB_610_RH.jpg



    The Daimler-Benz DB 605... http://w1.1861.telia.com/~u186104874/db605.htm

    Basic technical aspects of the DB 605.

    (This description and the following performance tables will be using metric measurements.)

    - 60 degrees inverted V-12, pressure-cooled

    - bore: 154 mm, stroke: 160 mm, total volume: 35,7 litres

    - compression ratio: 7.5/7.3 (87 octane), 8.5/8.3 (96 octane)

    - length: 2303 mm, height: 1050 mm, width: 762-845 mm

    - dry weight: 730 - 745 kg, built-in weight: 764 - 815 kg

    - 4 valves per cylinder, 1 overhung camshaft

    - direct fuel injection

    - single-stage variable speed mechanical compressor driven via a barometricly controlled hydraulic clutch (the DB 605L had a two-stage compressor)

    - rpm: max. 2800, climb: 2600, max. cruise: 2300

    - performance: 1435 - 2000 hp at sea level

    - rated altitude in climbing condition: 5.8 - 8 km (again excluding DB 605L) .

    - several versions ecquipped to utilise MW-50 or GM-1
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  7. #7
    p1ngu666's Avatar Senior Member
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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napier_Nomad

    i think most of the german ideas where simply bolting on another engine at the back of the orignal
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  8. #8
    It would have been interesting to see what the Napier Nomad engine could do in a marine application.
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  9. #9
    If the question is 'what is the best German aero engine in development by the end of the war?', the answer is very simply : DB 603N, easily the most impressive engine of the Germans by any account. It was producing massive amounts of power and having a massive rated altitude at the same time. I'd just love seeing that engine being bolted onto a 109K.
    I am not sure how far they got with it though, but it was an improved existing DB 603LA.

    The DB 605D was aiming for 2.3ata and for about 2300 PS in a very compact package, the Jumo 213 was going up for 2600 or so HP, gotto check that out though. KH probably knows the BMW 801 better; I don't think the rest of the exotic projects deserve much attention.

    Regarding the Sabre, it's a powerful and very advanced engine, no doubt about that - a bit problematic through it's service as well. But the Sabre's power output is to be looked upon like a radial rather than a sleek inline - look at the frontal area, it's frontal area is almost as big as the BMW 801, and 30% greater than a DB 605 or Merlin. The Sabre is producing a lot of power, and a lot of drag as well - just compare with the FW 190D-9 with the 'less impressive' Jumo 213. Engine effiency is always a big factor.
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  10. #10
    My vote would go to the F8F.....before anyone says it....it was designed and flown during WW2, and was on it's way to combat when the war ended, so it does count.
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